Executor probate issues

[NeedToKnow101]

Is it ever possible legally for a bank account to be gifted to a beneficiary outside of the Will?

The deceased was the sole account holder, the beneficiary had POA.

The Will was rewritten fairly recently, with no mention of specific gifts, just % shares of Estate to be shared between beneficiaries.

I'm guess next steps are getting my own solicitor as she won't back down.

Your friend 🤔

Poa ends on death and bank accounts are frozen. How did she receive a payment after the person died, did no one inform the bank of the death. The bank would usually release funeral funds at the request of the executor. The executor needs to apply for probate so they have the authority to access bank accounts.

How can you verbally gift a bank account, the bank would need written proof to hand over the account into another name and would ask to see both parties in person. I'd ring the bank and ask if they know she died, has the poa been cancelled which you can check with the office of the public guardian and accounts can't be accessed yet.

I'm trying not to out anyone, as Mumsnet threads often come up in search engines for all sorts of topics.

I have seen the bank statements until a few months after the death, and I've seen the emails and messages. I just don't want my friend to get fucked over.

All of this, yes. Money was spent on funeral and caterers, venue etc, but after that there was still about 20k.. now she is saying it has all gone on various fees to do with the Estate... I don't see how Estate fees from a straightforward estate could be that costly..

She needs to see the bank statements and invoices. Nothing is paid out untill at least probate is granted and then it's in order of priority, there will be a Grant of Probate issued which takes months, this allows the executor to open the account to pay bills. What estate fees is she talking about. Once probate is given, tax, debts, assets all finalised the executor will prepare final accounts which details all the money who was paid what and the final amount payable to each beneficiaries. The bank account will be frozen

Thanks @TraitorsGate she is still using the bank account, and says she is paying ongoing solicitor's fees and other things. I don't think she has transferred it to her name, but she may have.

Solicitors don't have ongoing fees in my experience, you pat the final amount when final accounts are approved, beneficiaries gave to approve the accounts too. I would contact the bank bereavement or fraud line for advice.

It could be a donatio mortis causa.
At the end of the day the only people entitled to information about the estate are the residuary beneficiaries, and even then they are only really entitled to a copy of the accounts at the end of the administration (not before probate). Generally it’s good practice for an executor to share information but they are not obliged to.
I doubt the solicitor will speak to you, as you are not a beneficiary.

Also, if an account was in joint names it would automatically pass to the co-owner, regardless of what’s in the Will.

That may be a thing here of course.

You are not allowed to spend from the estate's money on pretty much anything except the funeral (I'm not even able to claim costs for the wake from my father's bank).

If there are genuine executor's expenses they are settled after probate is granted.

I've had POA and been an executor three times now. I was given a small sum of money prior to the person's death to pay for some inevitable expenses (death certificates, etc) but you can't just help yourself from the account, it should be frozen on the death of the account holder.

That's true, the only way the bank account could still be used if its a joint account but that would have ad both names and the deceased relatives name would now be removed.

What ongoing solicitor's fees? They bill you at the end, especially with probate, otherwise lots of people wouldn't be able to pay them (due to lack of access to the estate), and they wouldn't get any business! Ongoing solicitor's fees and any other fees except funeral costs need to be covered from other funds, and most bills can be put off by telling the company that probate hasn't been finalised and they'll need to wait. She can't just keep spending the estate money, even if it's for estate matters.

Banks release a certain amount if you can show them ID and the will, stating that you are executor. I was amazed by this; it can be £50000 with some banks. She's still got to stay within the law though. Even if she has access to the money, she can't spend it unless it's hers, and what she spends will be deducted from her %, rather than the total.

No it's not a joint account.

It surely not possible to transfer a bank account into a different name once the account holder has died. The original account holder has to agree to that. But if they turned it into a joint account before his death then that completely changes things and it would probably cost your friend more than it's worth to try and contest that tbh.

@littlebox - it definitely wasn't transferred to her name before death, so she is using the account still while it's in the deceased name.

@NeedToKnow101 Sounds like the bank aren’t actually aware that the person has died.

The POA ceases on death, so if this person had POA access to the account prior to death, this should have ceased and the account frozen.

How can she be using the bank account? It should have been frozen when the person died. The only way another person could use it is if the account was in their joint names.

This is definitely what it sounds like. But it's weird as a solicitor is doing probate so you would think they would have told her she couldn't do this.

@nothingsforgotten - or if she didn't tell the bank? It is definitely not a shared account.

Most obvious action - your friend needs to tell the bank. She may need to get a copy of the death cert. The bank have a bereavement dept who will advise.

No. All monies should go into the pot so to speak and the will executored as per the deased wishes

The solicitor may not know, they person registering the death should inform the bank, she may be drawing money out and paying cash and the story about ongoing fees is bollox, that's not how solicitors work, they take their final fee including everything they do like searches, tax etc. Etc. When the final accounts are approved.