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Legal matters

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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

House let without gas/ electrical safety certificates

121 replies

Babaretceleste · 13/05/2024 13:22

Hi everyone

I rent an expensive house in London with my family (two kids), which is being sold by my landlord with us in situ as tenants. As part of the exchange process, a gas safety check was conducted. A “dangerous” leak was discovered and the gas supply cut off until new piping was installed and the gas rerouted. Our gas oven was also condemned as dangerous and disconnected.

It turns out, now I’ve looked into legal requirements and what has/ hasn’t been done, that my landlord hasn’t done a gas safety check for 5 years! He should have done so annually. Nor has he done an electricity safety check. None of the legally required certificates exist so the tenancy has been illegal for 5 years!

Do we have a claim against the landlord for rent repayment/ damages?

Do we have a claim against the (leading) estate agent which let us the property and continued to gather the rent/ charge commission without checking these certificates existed/ were being renewed.

Many thanks for any advice. I am truly speechless with horror at what might have happened/ the health implications for my family.

OP posts:
PaminaMozart · 14/05/2024 14:31

Babaretceleste · 14/05/2024 14:10

Estate agent is Foxtons

🙀

Now why doesn't this surprise me...

Jeezitneverends · 14/05/2024 14:37

Babaretceleste · 14/05/2024 14:27

So for sure, I will be more on it next time. But is there no basic legal safety protection for people lacking in common sense?

Well there is, you could have had someone else check over the contract if you weren’t confident to do so yourself. Please don’t think I’m defending thre landlord in any way, but you have a responsibility yourself

Thistooshallpsss · 14/05/2024 14:40

I suppose we tend to act on trust that everyone we encounter acts within the law. It is really the only way for civilised society to work. It would be impossible to have regulatory bodies checking all the time on whether people and institutions are acting lawfully. But in reality no one has to obey any law civil or criminal but there are consequences if found out.

Babaretceleste · 14/05/2024 14:42

But gas safety checks are not a requirement in the contract. They’re a requirement in law - and they have to be annual. Electricity checks have to be at the start of the tenancy (there was none) and every five years. I don’t think what the contract says is relevant. I don’t think a landlord can opt out of these requirements.

I will look if there’s anything in the agreement also

OP posts:
Babaretceleste · 14/05/2024 14:43

Sorry, my last was a response to jeezitneverends

OP posts:
Babaretceleste · 14/05/2024 14:46

Thistooshallpsss · 14/05/2024 14:40

I suppose we tend to act on trust that everyone we encounter acts within the law. It is really the only way for civilised society to work. It would be impossible to have regulatory bodies checking all the time on whether people and institutions are acting lawfully. But in reality no one has to obey any law civil or criminal but there are consequences if found out.

Thanks, trying to work out those consequences! Agree, you act on trust. But it’s not just blind trust… this was a house let through a big name estate agency. Surely that counts for something?

OP posts:
MalbecandToast · 14/05/2024 14:53

Babaretceleste · 14/05/2024 14:46

Thanks, trying to work out those consequences! Agree, you act on trust. But it’s not just blind trust… this was a house let through a big name estate agency. Surely that counts for something?

you don't need to "work out the consequences" - the HSE website clearly lists the legal requirements of landlords and that they can be fined or imprisoned for non-compliance. They cannot be sued by tenants, unless tenants can show medical proof that they have been harmed by the lack of certification.

I get your annoyance, I really do, but you are not going to benefit financially from this. Just report the landlord to the HSE and find a new place.

Babaretceleste · 14/05/2024 14:57

Well it’s not just lack of certification. It’s lack of certification plus dangerous gas leak for we don’t know how long

Honestly, does everyone who posts on legal get this supercilious response whereby we ought to know the answer? I thought this was the point of posting

OP posts:
Grotbagg · 14/05/2024 14:58

i can’t see that Foxtons have done anything wrong here. They merely took instruction from the landlord, found a tenant who was suitable, did the initial checks, drew up a contract and once you were in it was the end of their involvement. We are landlords and have properties that we rent in a similar way. Once the teNant is in the letting agent is out of the picture and it’s all down to us as the landlord to sort everything. Some of our tenants have been in place for many years. They ring if there’s a problem and we sort it

MalbecandToast · 14/05/2024 15:00

But unless you can show that the leak has had an adverse effect on you, there are no grounds for compensation for you. That is what we are trying to explain.

Yes its not great that he hasn't had it done, but you are not going to benefit financially from this. You can, as others have said, leave without notice but that's about it.

Jeezitneverends · 14/05/2024 15:01

Babaretceleste · 14/05/2024 14:43

Sorry, my last was a response to jeezitneverends

I know, I’m a landlord (boo hiss etc)

Babaretceleste · 14/05/2024 15:01

Grotbagg · 14/05/2024 14:58

i can’t see that Foxtons have done anything wrong here. They merely took instruction from the landlord, found a tenant who was suitable, did the initial checks, drew up a contract and once you were in it was the end of their involvement. We are landlords and have properties that we rent in a similar way. Once the teNant is in the letting agent is out of the picture and it’s all down to us as the landlord to sort everything. Some of our tenants have been in place for many years. They ring if there’s a problem and we sort it

But Foxtons takes the rent
Raised the rent in line with RPI
Tried to raise it again
Never once paying attention to landlord’s obligations

OP posts:
Babaretceleste · 14/05/2024 15:02

So Foxtons still involved, I would say. They’re taking a commission on the rent! And have been for 5 years

OP posts:
Jeezitneverends · 14/05/2024 15:03

The agents work for the landlord not the tenant

Babaretceleste · 14/05/2024 15:04

But don’t they have some kind of duty to the tenant not to let/ continue letting an unsafe house?

OP posts:
Jeezitneverends · 14/05/2024 15:09

The agent isn’t letting the house, they owe nothing to the tenant, it’s all the landlord’s responsibilities.

I’m not saying they shouldn’t act morally, of course they should, but morals don’t always come into business.

When I became a landlord, I had all my inspections paperwork in place before I even went near my agent. They get their 10% very easily from me!

Just because an agent is big and well known doesn’t mean they act well

VanCleefArpels · 14/05/2024 15:12

Babaretceleste · 14/05/2024 15:01

But Foxtons takes the rent
Raised the rent in line with RPI
Tried to raise it again
Never once paying attention to landlord’s obligations

If they are paid by the landlord to collect rent they are not necessarily also paid to fully manage the tenancy which would include eg arranging and renewing gas certificate (the agent I use - another evil landlord here- emailed me just today to remind me that a gas certificate is about to expire)

It’s a shame you equate a statement of fact with superciliousness

ARichtGoodDram · 14/05/2024 15:18

Babaretceleste · 14/05/2024 15:04

But don’t they have some kind of duty to the tenant not to let/ continue letting an unsafe house?

It’s nothing to do with them if they’re not managing the property. It’s solely on the landlord.

Speak to your local council and they may pursue action against your LL for failing in his legal duties.

He may end up with a fine or a criminal record.

There’s no financial compensation for tenants in these kind of circumstances.

Legacy · 14/05/2024 15:22

OP - plenty of people trying to give you accurate information and advice here, but you sound hell bent on trying to get compensation or something (which, as explained, numerous times, will not be forthcoming to you for a failure to provide gas safety certificates).

A "dangerous" leak being cut off with some scary yellow tape applied is the standard response to any gas problem and doesn't indicate the scale of the problem. Also, as others have pointed out, regulations change all the time and have definitely changed in the last 5 years, so something which was deemed acceptable a few years ago may no longer be.
Sometimes new, younger gas safety engineers are over-zealous. When I was a LL I had a gas safety check and the young guy, fresh out of college, condemned it all as "dangerous" and shut off the supply and plastered yellow stickers everywhere. Turned out he didn't think the boiler was earthed, but he hadn't bothered to look behind the kickboards on the floor of the kitchen!

Are you sure a gas safety check hadn't been done? Has anyone been in to do any boiler services? Perhaps they just forgot to leave the form? My gas engineer emails them to me afterwards. Perhaps the LL just forgot to pass it on?

There is no evidence that you have been impacted in any way during your tenancy and the fact that you're now scrabbling around for evidence of illnesses and headaches makes you sound grabby and unhinged to be honest.

Yes, your landlord has been lax and may not have complied with all the regulations regarding certificates etc, and yes, he could be fined, but no money is coming your way!

Araminta1003 · 14/05/2024 15:54

Well Foxtons is listed on the LSE so email the CEO with your complaint! I always found it shocking that their terms and conditions insist on continuing to take commission without any obligation in return. So you can try it and threaten to expose to the Daily Mail… Winkworth are also listed and far more professional. The Foxton terms and conditions to incentivise the landlord to have to keep paying commission on renewals even if the tenant stays and then putting rents up is a racket, in my opinion.

Araminta1003 · 14/05/2024 16:01

Because you pay a fairly large rent we know you are quite well off yourself so you are going to get certain responses. With that kind of rent, you can buy a place yourself if you don’t want to be at the mercy of landlords and we can also assume that you have a fair amount of basic intelligence if you can command a larger salary to afford that kind of rent. And with that you should make sure you know your basic rights as a renter and what the laws are.

The EICR requirements are also a bit of a racket and incentivise electricians to state all sort of expensive non urgent things that most homeowner would never dream of doing straight away and when landlords end up having to spend, then inevitably they pass the costs on to tenants. So whilst gas and fire safety are really important things as a concept, just making a lot of red tape around tenants actually means that tenants end up paying higher rents. Hence some people will be critical of these things. Same goes for EPCs. You have to renew the EPC every 10 years, but give two different people the job they wont necessarily come up with the exact same EPC rating and for a while there was talk of making only EPC Cs rentable which would have put further pressure on the housing stock, thereby pushing rents up further.

All tenants and homeowners should always make sure they have functioning fire alarms and CO as well and make sure they know the safest route out of the building in the event of fire and have various exit points in mind/strategies.

KievLoverTwo · 14/05/2024 16:10

I think the fundamental problem in this thread is, you're unable to understand and come to grips with just how few rights tenants have; you feel the Government should be there to protect you.

Think of it like this: the Government, and courts system, are just like a Human Resources department of a massive corporation.

On your first day, they meet with you and tell you that they're there for you, they hand over a bunch of policies that say you should let them know if you have a disability so they can find a way to accommodate you, they tell you they don't tolerate bullying, and they make you think they're your friend, and anything you say is confidential.

That's not how it actually works once you scratch under the surface. You can be sure someone in HR will be on the phone to your boss the minute there's a whiff of a problem but nothing will ever get put in writing, so you'll already be on the backfoot, because now your boss knows. The two disability forms my OH filled out for x2 massive employers and HR contacting him to accommodate them? No, nada. HR are there to protect the corporation, but you'll be sure they'll be your best friend if ever there is a hint of a scandal.

The Government and courts system work in a very similar way. They get money from businesses to run the country and rely on that; they don't want to upset businesses. Perhaps some examples may help:

It's written in housing law that a landlord must provide you with working heating and hot water.

But there's nothing that says 'at all times.'

So, your boiler breaks, it takes your landlord all winter to fix it, that's just tough shit. If you feel he's not meeting legal requirements, you have to fork out the money to take him to court.

But then what happens?

You get a Section 21 eviction notice (a 'nobody's fault' eviction) and have to find a new home within 2 months.

Then the landlord refuses to respond to reference requests from a potential new landlord and because potential new LL is prudent, they refuse to rent to you.

Or

The heating system must be maintained every five years.

But guess what? Nobody does, there's no paper trail given to tenants, there's no 'renters checklist' that shows you your radiators should be fully working because they were last tested 2 years ago. Freezing cold radiators? Tough shit. I had engineers lie to me for 3 months that it was NORMAL that radiators be cold at the bottom, like I was some dumb f**k who just crawled out of a swamp and didn't know how to google.

Guess why I didn't push and push and push it?

Because I knew I would get a Section 21 and didn't want to be forced into moving in a timeframe I have no control over.

It's a disgusting fact that 40% of people who complain to their landlords about repairs get issued an eviction notice. And this is perfectly legal.

This should be banned, right? The Government should protect you from that?

Well, the Government proposed a Renters Reform bill around about the time they were last tarting for our votes and now, 5 years later, the house of lords keep sending it back saying 'that's not good enough' to the house of commons, but the house of commons get the final say on it, and about a third of the backbenchers who are opposing the part of the renters reform bill that bans landlords from evicting tenants for no reason are also landlords themselves. So they're just sitting there arguing about it.

Another example:

LL must provide affordable heating system (paraphrased)

But guess what? There's no definition of 'affordable.'

If they really cared that much the law would be very specific, i.e. 'the landlord must provide a heating system that costs no more than 10% of the disposable income of the median salary in the area' could actually do something.

Again, the Government should sort that, right? After all, we all want to go green.

Again, the Government paid lip service to that. They announced that as of 2025 all rented homes must be an EPC C or above.

.... and then they cancelled it.

Turns out, they hadn't thought through the costs of doing that, the lack of workmen available to carry out the work, or the droves and droves of landlords who would say 'sod that, I'm selling up' - which is exactly what was happening up until six months ago when they went back on their word. All the really old, energy efficient rentals were just getting sold.

So. Anyway. Think of the government and courts a bit like a sly Human Resources department and perhaps you'll start to have a better time. Or at least a better understanding.

As to your current tenancy, do you need a rental reference for your next house? If so, tread carefully. Don't push your landlord. I've moved three times in three years and the hoops you have to jump to are getting progressively worse. I can also promise you it matters jack shit how much money you have in the bank or earn either. The demands before they 'let' you rent a home these days are completely intrusive and out of control.

So, if you need a reference, you really NEED a reference. And that should be your first and top priority.

As to the headaches: yeah, mild gas inhalation will cause headaches. I doubt you will have permanent harm. True carbon monoxide poisoning will kill you in your sleep whilst you are sleeping.

(fun fact - the reason that gas smells is because they add chemicals to make it smell cos it's so dangerous - gas naturally doesn't smell of anything)

Make sure your next home has carbon monoxide alarms in any room with a gas boiler and or gas heater/wood burning fire.

KievLoverTwo · 14/05/2024 16:24

Araminta1003 · 14/05/2024 16:01

Because you pay a fairly large rent we know you are quite well off yourself so you are going to get certain responses. With that kind of rent, you can buy a place yourself if you don’t want to be at the mercy of landlords and we can also assume that you have a fair amount of basic intelligence if you can command a larger salary to afford that kind of rent. And with that you should make sure you know your basic rights as a renter and what the laws are.

The EICR requirements are also a bit of a racket and incentivise electricians to state all sort of expensive non urgent things that most homeowner would never dream of doing straight away and when landlords end up having to spend, then inevitably they pass the costs on to tenants. So whilst gas and fire safety are really important things as a concept, just making a lot of red tape around tenants actually means that tenants end up paying higher rents. Hence some people will be critical of these things. Same goes for EPCs. You have to renew the EPC every 10 years, but give two different people the job they wont necessarily come up with the exact same EPC rating and for a while there was talk of making only EPC Cs rentable which would have put further pressure on the housing stock, thereby pushing rents up further.

All tenants and homeowners should always make sure they have functioning fire alarms and CO as well and make sure they know the safest route out of the building in the event of fire and have various exit points in mind/strategies.

You have to renew the EPC every 10 years

I'd just like to clarify, because I looked into this at great length last year.

EPCs expire after 10 years.

But if there is an EPC in place and ten years have passed and the same tenant has been there all that time, the landlord does not then HAVE to get a new EPC done for that sitting tenant to be compliant with law.

If the EPC is 11 years old, say, and the LL is looking for a new tenant, then they have to get a new one done.

It's also now a legal requirement for an EPC to be done as part of the process of selling your home. I believe the requirements are that they have to be submitted as part of the Memorandum of Sale at the very early stages.

Most assessors get paid quite a lot less than minimum wage to travel to site, produce the report, input all the data that churns it out, and, for the most part, they are universally awful and terribly unreliable, because they have to work on assumptions, and they often don't even enter the house.

With the exception of new build properties where they are given all the paperwork by the developers and are allowed by their two regulating schemes to put 'everything shiny new great' into their software.

I've seen EPCs get the square footage on a house wrong by 40%. My current house. Which is completely square with no additions. O_O

Araminta1003 · 14/05/2024 16:51

@KievLoverTwo - yes you are correct re the EPC and I do know that, but I did not want to be that specific as my post was already getting long…

Point is though that no reputable agent will market and rent a new tenancy without a currently valid EPC, EICR or gas safe certificate (plus right to rent I think from tenants so they are not going to rent to those with no right to be in the UK either).

And rent collection is a grey area and Foxtons should really if they are still collecting commission, be at least collecting the gas safe as well. I know for a fact that other agents that do rent collection do precisely that. And given they are listed the OP could kick up a fuss, but needs to be careful with references.

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