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Legal matters

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Leaseholder and freeholder dispute

107 replies

Feebs7 · 06/03/2024 16:35

Hi,

We have a dispute with out co leaseholder/freeholder neighbour regarding ownership of an area under the stairs

Our lease says it's in our demise, with some smudgey writing over the stairs area.

Thinking it belonged to us, we added an opening into the wall so it could be accessed from inside our flat.

Previously it was only accessible by a key from a shared pathway outside the building, by the freeholder neighbour.

We do not know if our flat had a copy of this key, if it was lost, and the neighbour tried to seize it for his sole use.

As our neighbour is taking legal action and wanting massive compensation we got advice from a couple of solicitors who told our lease is unclear.

however our freeholder neighbour still maintains his lease is very clear.

His lease does have more information about it, than ours, but still not that clear, and it's not in our lease. Also we didn't see it till after we accessed the cupboard.

My main questions are:

Who is qualified to categorically state that our lease is unclear, demonstrating our actions was based on an unclear lease.

What should we do?

OP posts:
AlohaRose · 06/03/2024 17:10

Those are questions which you need to ask of the solicitors you have consulted. No one on here can advise you properly based on and unclear documents which we haven’t seen. Were you aware of the lack of clarity before you went ahead with the work and did it anyway?

Feebs7 · 07/03/2024 06:16

It's my elderly mums flat. She felt it was clearly hers, based on the whole area hatched in red with only a bit of fuzzy hand written writing over the area in dispute, but no other mention of it.

She went back to her conveyancing to solicitor to confirm if it's definitely hers, and he verbally assured her it was but did not respond to her email in writing, and he has since retracted his verbal advice.

The freeholder has been assuring mum it's his for past 6-8 years, but only produced his lease, which has more information about the area in dispute, a year ago. We didn't have this before.

Up and until then just verbal arguments with no solicitors involved.

What type of solicitor do we need?

We have a litigation solicitor, but he said he's unable to advise about the clarity of the lease, or compensation amounts, and needs counsel advice from a barrister, at extra cost to us as he believes this may go to court.

We are wondering if one experienced solicitor can handle this, without Counsel advice?

Has anyone had experience of this type of process?

OP posts:
amberedover1 · 07/03/2024 06:34

I'm sorry to be harsh but it sounds as though you've poked a bear here and now want to make matters worse .
Why physically create access from your mother's flat in the first place ? Did you discuss this first with the other party ,?
Is your mother happy with being at loggerheads with her neighbour and the prospect of legal battles?

amberedover1 · 07/03/2024 06:36

You could have got a copy of the other lease from the Land Registry. Not difficult and not expensive.

amberedover1 · 07/03/2024 06:42

I think in your shoes I'd let the neighbour get on with his legal action and do nothing .
It will be expensive for him .I doubt he'll be awarded "massive compensation"
Presumably you can always fill the access in from your side .
Just leave it . Reply to letters saying lease unclear.

ragdoll12345 · 07/03/2024 07:00

If the situation is ambiguous maybe Court action is an option. The Court would order an 'expert' report and based on the report make a finding as to who owns the disputed area. However this is likely to cost thousands.
When working in the Courts I saw cases where each side made multiple applications and counter applications over an area of land a couple of inches wide - went on for many years and cost a fortune.

SlipperyLizard · 07/03/2024 07:15

If it is unclear then only a court can decide - a solicitor can put forward arguments why it is yours, but if the other party disagrees then it is either go to court (costing tens of thousands for each side, with the loser usually then picking up most of the winner’s costs) or you can come to a sensible agreement with the other party.

Avoid court at all costs, unless this under stair area is worth ££££ to you/your mum.

prh47bridge · 07/03/2024 09:36

Who is qualified to categorically state that our lease is unclear, demonstrating our actions was based on an unclear lease.

The solicitors you have consulted are qualified to state that the lease is unclear. However, demonstrating that your actions were based on an unclear lease won't help you. If the lease is unclear, you should have clarified it the situation before putting an opening in the wall. Opening a way into an area that was previously inaccessible to you without clear evidence that you had the right to do this was reckless.

Feebs7 · 07/03/2024 11:33

My mum's a bit old skool.

She put a hole in the wall based on the verbal advice of her conveyancing solicitor (SRA registered) who told her the area under the stairs was hers.

She put a hole in the wall based on his advice.

He has since retracted his advice, due to it now being a litigation issue, and now stated in email that the lease is a bit unclear, but could belong our mums neighbour 🙄

OP posts:
femfemlicious · 07/03/2024 11:40

Can you not just repair the hole?. I don't think he will get very far if you have already remedied it.

Spirallingdownwards · 07/03/2024 11:51

amberedover1 · 07/03/2024 06:42

I think in your shoes I'd let the neighbour get on with his legal action and do nothing .
It will be expensive for him .I doubt he'll be awarded "massive compensation"
Presumably you can always fill the access in from your side .
Just leave it . Reply to letters saying lease unclear.

This is absolutely the worst advice on here. If the meighbour pursues this and your mum loses not only will she have ro pay her costs, put right the wall and pay his costs she will have the stress of the case as an elderly woman. Is an understands cupboard worth it? You say his lease is clearer (presumably on his favour). He had a key and presumably used it for a number of years before anyone in your mum's flat or mum did.

Her own solicitor has backtracked on supposed verbal legal advice which suggests he knows he was wrong

Ilovemyshed · 07/03/2024 11:58

If the lease is unclear then you have no option but to repair the hole and reinstate as it was. Get a copy of BOTH leases.

AlohaRose · 07/03/2024 12:02

Feebs7 · 07/03/2024 11:33

My mum's a bit old skool.

She put a hole in the wall based on the verbal advice of her conveyancing solicitor (SRA registered) who told her the area under the stairs was hers.

She put a hole in the wall based on his advice.

He has since retracted his advice, due to it now being a litigation issue, and now stated in email that the lease is a bit unclear, but could belong our mums neighbour 🙄

OP, are you/your mum determined to fight this or do you think she can be advised to return the cupboard to how it was? Fighting this case (even if only by doing nothing) is not how your mum needs to be spending her time. I agree that it is terrible advice from amberedover1 to just let him get on with it. He seems to have the means and desire to pursue this and if successful, your mum may end up thousands out of pocket.

I'm also rather suspicious of the advice which your mum apparently received on a verbal basis from a solicitor? Did she actually pay for his time - most solicitors will barely sneeze without documenting it so I can't understand why he would have given her legal advice without it being in written form. Are you relying on free half-hour consultations or something?

amberedover1 · 07/03/2024 13:20

@Spirallingdownwards
You're absolutely right .BlushI should NOT have said "do nothing "
So wrong not thinking Blush
I'm glad you've put them correct position.

Personally I think the OP's mother was v silly to do this , particularly if no n discussion with neighbour.
Sounds like a long running dispute

Feebs7 · 07/03/2024 17:15

Thanks for all your comments. They are all valid - apart from the one about doing nothing......that is what my mum did for years - after she put a hole in the wall and started using the area as her own.

She was adamant in the belief that it was still hers. And she thought right would prevail.

It did not prevail in her favour.....the neighbour continued to verbally complain to her about it and was also abusive (had to call the police).

It was only when she did nothing that he then took legal action.....

OP posts:
Feebs7 · 07/03/2024 17:27

Yes, it's been a long wrangle, which caused mum to have a mental breakdown.....

We are attempting to sort it out now.

Mum thinks, based speaking with other neighbours, that the area in dispute belonged to both flats before she moved in, and that her flat had the keys at one time.

When one of the previous owners of mums flat died we think the freeholder saw an opportunity to use the area for his sole use.

Mum has also been told by neighbours, that the freeholder had access to mums flat at that time, so the keys may have disappeared then. But this is here- say.

Mum also feels that the freeholder may have done some cash deal, with the last owner of mums flat, but it never got written into mums lease nor on the property info form when mum bought it off him.

I don't condone mums risky action of making a hole in the wall and using the area for her sole use, based on an old conveyancers verbal go ahead - without anything in writing.

But my mum trusted his verbal advice - and probably based on all this history around it - and it being hatched as hers in her lease - thought it should be hers.

Once the freeholder got his solicitor involved, mum went back to her conveyancing solicitor, who re-read her lease and the freeholders lease.

In an email, his assistant stated that mums lease was unclear, but that the area under the stairs appeared to belong to her.

He then then followed his assistants email up the next day - retracting his assistants email - stating that the area under the stairs belongs to the freeholder. The conveyancing solicitor is an extremely shady character.

We don't believe he ever read mums overlying lease, during mums conveyancing. When we question this - he said as mum never paid for the full conveyancing service, it wasn't in his scope to read the freeholders lease.

I just think people who are not savvy, like my mum, must get into huge difficulties like this all the time....

OP posts:
UpsideLeft · 07/03/2024 17:27

You are massive CF by gaining illegal entrance to the cupboard from inside your flat

What were you thinking

Feebs7 · 07/03/2024 17:27

Btw, mums freeholder neighbour is pretty vicious and greedy, and will not stop litigating until he gets a HUGE amount of compensation from our mum...... for an area less than 1m2 with a sloped ceiling reduced head height......

OP posts:
amberedover1 · 07/03/2024 17:35

I wonder how the amount of compensation would be calculated?
What would it be based on - deprivation of rental value as a storage space ?
How long ago did your mother create her access?

amberedover1 · 07/03/2024 17:37

Why has he waited until now to go to law?

SoupDragon · 07/03/2024 17:48

Is there any reason you can't just brick up the hole and return it to a communal outdoor storage area?

AlohaRose · 07/03/2024 19:09

amberedover1 · 07/03/2024 17:37

Why has he waited until now to go to law?

OP says he has been complaining about this for years, going to law is a last resort. Her mum seems to have been burying her head in the sand and hoping it would go away.

AlohaRose · 07/03/2024 19:26

Feebs7 · 07/03/2024 17:27

Yes, it's been a long wrangle, which caused mum to have a mental breakdown.....

We are attempting to sort it out now.

Mum thinks, based speaking with other neighbours, that the area in dispute belonged to both flats before she moved in, and that her flat had the keys at one time.

When one of the previous owners of mums flat died we think the freeholder saw an opportunity to use the area for his sole use.

Mum has also been told by neighbours, that the freeholder had access to mums flat at that time, so the keys may have disappeared then. But this is here- say.

Mum also feels that the freeholder may have done some cash deal, with the last owner of mums flat, but it never got written into mums lease nor on the property info form when mum bought it off him.

I don't condone mums risky action of making a hole in the wall and using the area for her sole use, based on an old conveyancers verbal go ahead - without anything in writing.

But my mum trusted his verbal advice - and probably based on all this history around it - and it being hatched as hers in her lease - thought it should be hers.

Once the freeholder got his solicitor involved, mum went back to her conveyancing solicitor, who re-read her lease and the freeholders lease.

In an email, his assistant stated that mums lease was unclear, but that the area under the stairs appeared to belong to her.

He then then followed his assistants email up the next day - retracting his assistants email - stating that the area under the stairs belongs to the freeholder. The conveyancing solicitor is an extremely shady character.

We don't believe he ever read mums overlying lease, during mums conveyancing. When we question this - he said as mum never paid for the full conveyancing service, it wasn't in his scope to read the freeholders lease.

I just think people who are not savvy, like my mum, must get into huge difficulties like this all the time....

There's an awful lot of supposition here based on what your mum thought, what the neighbours said, disappearing keys, rumours of cash deals and a lot of other irrelevant stuff. Even if the previous owner DID have a key that may have been an informal agreement with the freeholder.

Based on your post above, you've also changed what you initially said about the advice from the solicitor - you first said that he verbally told you the space was your mums but then retracted, now you are saying that it was his assistant who emailed to say the space was your mums but when the actual solicitor looked at the lease he did put down in writing that the space belongs to the freeholder. Please don't think about going down the road of saying that he is a shady character either - what on earth would he have to gain from giving you incorrect advice about this?

Honestly, is there some reason, given how much it is impacting on your mum's health and peace of mind, why she doesn't just brick or board up the entrance and tell the freeholder that she was mistaken and will no longer have access to the space.

Feebs7 · 07/03/2024 20:06

amberedover1 · 07/03/2024 17:35

I wonder how the amount of compensation would be calculated?
What would it be based on - deprivation of rental value as a storage space ?
How long ago did your mother create her access?

Yes, they've calculated storage as rent...but somehow come up with a really high monthly figure....

OP posts:
Feebs7 · 07/03/2024 20:10

AlohaRose · 07/03/2024 19:09

OP says he has been complaining about this for years, going to law is a last resort. Her mum seems to have been burying her head in the sand and hoping it would go away.

I think you've got the picture...

OP posts: