Aaarghhhh - how to sell a house with no docs

[probate101]

So. Sorry for length...

My MiL has gone into care. She was living in a house which belonged to her parents. She has one sister (living). Her father and mother died about 20 years ago.

We need to sell the house to fund her care. But there are no documents. We think that the property is probably jointly left to her and her sister but there are no deeds, to our knowledge no will from her parents and the property didn't go through probate. The property isn't worth much. Probably about £100K.

My husband and his brother are trying to sort it out. They don't have PoA. I don't think MiL would have capacity. Her sister is contactable but they're not close. She wouldn't get involved in sorting out the legal stuff.

DH has been told by an inheritance service that they'd need to reconstruct the deeds. Which would cost £5K. And that's not even the end of it.

Can anyone tell us what steps we'd need to take to sort this mess out? Any hints and tips on trying to find docs - we've tried the land registry etc.

Or should we can leave it to the LA to resolve - as no one has PoA? We're not trying to reduce liability for care fees or anything - just make sure we're totally legal and not spending more than the value of the house in legal fees.

As above, the title to the house needs to be reconstructed. That won't be cheap or simple but it needs to be done.

If you do nothing you are only kicking the can down the road until MIL dies.

Just ask a lawyer they will know better

So you’ve checked with the land registry and they’ve told you it’s unregistered land?

As a first step have a look at this guide: https://www.gov.uk/registering-land-or-property-with-land-registry/register-for-the-first-time

Basically there is a process to register properties, it’s a hassle but you’re going to have to do it some time.

In your shoes I would look through the guide and the application form, fill in as much as you can, find the documents etc that you need. Then find a property solicitor and ask them for a quote to handle the registration, making clear how much information you already have, it should be much cheaper than £5k.

Property lawyer here.

As PO above, follow the lLand Registry's process for registering unregistered land. There is also a process to follow for cases where title deeds have been lost. This could include approaching local solicitors who may have dealt with MIL/her parents and hold some information on file.

Have you done a search of the probate registry (use .gov.uk site not any other spurious firm) to establish whether probate was granted for her parents?

I would make as many enquiries as you can and then approach a solicitor- many firms have a specialist dealing with elderly clients who will have come across this before.

Thanks all - that's helpful. Yes - the land is currently unregistered.

I'll start by contacting solicitors locally to see if wills or anything are with them. I'll check out that link tomorrow too about getting the land registered.

Is it okay to go ahead with all of this if we don't have PoA and there's another interested part (MIL's sister). She doesn't want anything to do with sorting it out at all but don't want it to bite my husband or his brother on the arse later.

The house belonged to her parents ?
I think you may be able to do a will search with the probate registry to confirm whether a will was written ? The natural assumption would be that property would be left 50% to both sisters but may not always be the case ?
Also if no will was written or can't be found then rules of intestacy would apply which means that house would go 50/50 to both sisters - are you sure that her sister doesn't have any documents.
Is there a reason why she wouldn't remember what happened 20 years ago ( is she mentally able ?)
You say she wouldn't get involved in sorting out legal stuff - but she may own or be legally entitled to 50% of the sale - so not sure why she is not wanting to be involved?

My MiL is lacking competence. (Not officially but to all practical intents.)

My DH's aunt though we presume would inherit half of the house is not at all interested in getting involved. My MIL is a very difficult person who has always been pretty unpleasant. There are some complex family dynamics.

I suspect the Aunt would welcome a cheque but she has worked hard and is now retired with a number of properties and is quite wealthy. So it won't be a life changing inheritance given the property value.

To be honest, I think sorting the property should be done by the Aunt and the LA acting on behalf of my MIL but it's falling to DH and his brother. I'm concerned that they may not even gave any right to sort it out.

Have you looked into your husband getting a POA to deal with his mum's affairs ?
You might be able to as long as she still has a capacity to agree to it ?
Also - assuming there is no will from their parents stating otherwise then yes it would be down to her sister to sort out the property as she would have inherited under rules of intestacy- I am right in thinking that when the parents died your MIL lived in the house but her sister didn't?
Situation with sister seems odd - if she has a number of properties she would surely understand how property ownership works - also she must have known what happened when parents died ? Whether there had been a will - I think your dh & brother should try and find out the story from her and at least ask her if she has any documents copies of a will etc - if she really doesn't want to be involved then your dh would be able to take on the sorting out of mums affairs but there must be some reason why she is not communicating with you as regards the history of the situation?

If she doesn't formally own the house and there's no evidence that it was left to her in a will then I don't understand how the local authority can ask for it to be sold ?

So Aunt doesn't want to be involved with this the difficult bit, but seems to want her share?

Have you gone onto gov.uk website and looked up Probate? See if there's anything listed on a will.
Go to the local authority archive and see if you can identify when the property was built (you might have to go in person)
This is all stuff I've learned from being an inexperienced very amateur genealogist. You might need to do a bit of family tracing but hopefully there will only be local documents you need to access which will be easier, quicker and cheaper.
And take note what the property lawyer says further up the thread as it looks like you need that

The natural implication is that the house is 50% DMIL's property. If the council knows that she's living in the house and not a tenant, and they don't know she has a sister, their starting assumption would be that it belongs to her 100% - regardless of whether the title has been properly transferred. Loads of people live in inherited houses that they haven't bothered to get properly transferred, it's not ideal but it happens.

Aunt has a decision to make. Assuming there was no will when the parents died, does she want to take 50% of the house value when it is sold or does she want to sign it over to her sister and (probably) in effect the council. There may be tricky capital gains tax implications either way.

You aren’t going to be able to sell an unregistered property that you don’t own and/or without documents.
There are a lot of things to try and establish if you can before deciding what happens next, especially as you won’t be able to register it in the deceased parent(s) name(s)
The assumption is that her deceased parents owned it but you have no deeds/documents. If they did then were they joint owners or was just one (Dad?) the owner - pre 70s it wasn’t unusual for socio-economic reasons for the male to be the sole legal owner.
Probate would be needed as the legal ownership doesn’t pass on inheritance alone. It has to be transferred so an executor would do that but it can happen that people rely on inheritance alone and just carry on living in a property.
Siblings would usually be involved in the inheritance/beneficial ownership but they don’t have to be re probate and more.
There’s a lot to try and unravel first with your detective work to see what evidence you can find to help prove who legally owned the property as that’s then going to impact on how you can then apply to register it. And until it is, a buyer isn’t going to be able to register a purchase if they actually completed, which I can’t see them doing, so a sale/purchase isn’t happening yet.

And it’s this Practice Guide 2 you really need to refer to re what’s needed
PG 2

Suggest you start by tracking if the MIL patents actually had a will that was registered for probate. That is easy to establish but I suspect there won't have been. It is therefore the intestacy rules that applied at the time and reconstructing deeds etc.

Yes is an awful mess. Underlines the need to get POA early enough when people are competent. Oh and if she is fit enough to get POA, don't expect it will be quick. We have just done it and took between 6-12 months due to queries...wasn't even looked at for 3 months!!

That's enormously helpful. Thank you. I mean I know it's a hellish situation but very clear.

I've done the probate check and nothing for the grandparents.

I've phone the local solicitors and no luck so far but I'm waiting for some to get back to us after the new year.

Ref PoA for MiL - I don't think this will be possible. Or necessarily desirable. She could be exceptionally difficult at the best of times and I don't think would be willing to arrange this even if she were deemed to be competent to make the decision.

We'll keep digging but it may be that we have to hold our hands up to the LA that we can't act on her behalf. What happens in that situation? I.e. if she is either to stay on the nursing home longer term or passes whilst it hasn't been sorted out? Should we direct the LA to my DH's aunt?

If the probate check shows nothing for the grand parents that I guess that means that the last one to die was intestate ( didn't have a will ) - the property would have passed to siblings - assuming there were just the two siblings MIL and her sister - need to find out from sister if mil isn't able to remember what happened when the parents died ? Maybe they didn't do probate and just carried on treating the house as theirs - sister is probably saying she doesn't want to be involved as she hasn't factored in the complication of her sister needing a nursing home - she was probably hoping that she could claim the whole property for herself once her sister was no longer mentally able or when she dies. Get it put in her name etc but she hasn't factored in the fact that her sister would go in to nursing home and her nephews would then start looking into the ownership of the property - I think your dh needs to speak to her either directly or through her solicitor to find out what she knows.

If your MIL has competency then this is a matter between the LA and her, there is no need for you to be concerned with the matter at all. The LA cannot instruct the house to be sold if there is no record that it belongs to your mother.
They can probably put something in place that shows they have an interest in it should it be sold or if the house is included in your MIL probate when she dies.