Not allowed to resign…??

Viviennemary · 27/10/2023 10:48

I think you need to ask for clarification. Expected to. I wouldn't day that was totally binding. Maybe negotiable.

Original poster

cocoloco23 · 27/10/2023 10:49

Thanks for replying. Do you think I need to ask for clarification from Company A or from the recruitment agency?

OP posts:

Footprintsinthesand · 27/10/2023 10:57

I've speak to ACAS or an employment solicitor. I think that there is a statutory minimum of 1 week but the contract can stipulate longer. Having no early termination option seems odd (but I'm not an employment lawyer so not sure)

YireosDodeAver · 27/10/2023 11:02

Does the IR35 thing mean that the company is being invoiced for services delivered (and the recruitment firm or you yourself are sorting out tax rather than bring a paye employee
)?

If so then I would think the contract would mean that you don't have employee status and if you don't see out the contract then Company A is entitled not to pay as the contract wasn't fulfilled. You need to get clarification as to whether you are in fact an employee.

YireosDodeAver · 27/10/2023 11:03

Does the IR35 thing mean that the company is being invoiced for services delivered (and the recruitment firm or you yourself are sorting out tax rather than bring a paye employee
)?

If so then I would think the contract would mean that you don't have employee status and if you don't see out the contract then Company A is entitled not to pay as the contract wasn't fulfilled. You need to get clarification as to whether you are in fact an employee.

FSTraining · 27/10/2023 13:51

cocoloco23 · 27/10/2023 10:45

Hi,

I’m a contractor working inside IR35 for Company A. I was employed by and am paid by a recruitment firm.

Company A are mentioned on my contract but the contract is headed with the recruitment firm’s logo.

The end date of my contract is May 2024.

Under notice period, the contract says ‘the client’ (presumably Company A?) has to give one week’s notice.

It says my notice period is:

“N/A – Expected to see out contract”

This means I can’t leave before May 2024, right? Is this legal? Is it enforceable?

thank you

The legality of these contracts is untested. I think if they were challenged in court, they would be found to be unlawful but there has been a reluctance by people on these contracts to take their employers to court (often because they are early in their careers and can't afford the legal risk or because they could get blacklisted from their industry).

ProfessorSlocombe · 28/10/2023 09:09

Seems we have recreated indentures. Next stop: slavery ?

tribpot · 28/10/2023 09:16

I've discussed lack of notice periods in contracts which are outside IR35, i.e. between one company and another. These are normally put in (as I understand it) to stop the contractor from accepting the contract, getting feet under the table with the customer for a week and then putting in notice unless the day rate is increased. So I think having no notice period is reasonably common, although I argued to have it put back in.

However, this kind of stuff inside IR35 is what really pisses me off about IR35. Deemed employee except when it comes to rights.

I assume if you're looking at the notice period you're wanting to give notice. I think it's probably the recruitment firm you would need to talk to as they are the ones paying you. It would be in their interests to tell you you can't give notice, though, so you might need independent advice.

ProfessorSlocombe · 28/10/2023 09:34

However, this kind of stuff inside IR35 is what really pisses me off about IR35. Deemed employee except when it comes to rights.

By design.

prh47bridge · 28/10/2023 09:35

@YireosDodeAver Yes, IR35 means OP is providing services to their client through an intermediary. IR35 ensures OP pays broadly the same income tax and NI as employees. However, it does not necessarily mean that OP does not have employee status. A claim for employment rights may succeed, but it is not automatic. It depends on the facts of the case.

Original poster

cocoloco23 · 29/10/2023 23:39

Thank you all. It’s really shit. I took this job because I had to. And it’s been dreadful - bullying, misogyny, stress. I cry at work most days. I’ve been offered something else and want to leave but it sounds like this is going to be very very difficult.

OP posts:

FSTraining · 30/10/2023 00:21

@cocoloco23 You're not working for La Fosse are you?

Gothambutnotahamster · 30/10/2023 00:31

Call ACAS Op - that really doesn't sound right. Depending on what ACAS say, I'd give notice & if they wont accept, I'd go off sick with work related stress for the duration. If you can't afford ghat, then raise grievances for the bullying & misogyny & generally make a nuisance of yourself so that they let you go (but be prepared in case they fire you).

That might not be the cleverest plan, so definitely see what ACAS say.

Savoury · 30/10/2023 00:32

My understanding was that the reason for no notice period was because if you resign, Company A can insist that intermediary meets the terms of their contract, I.e. they provide a skilled person with your profile immediately. The intermediary sees that as too much risk despite being a recruitment firm (usually) or management consultancy and insists on no notice period.
Can you talk to an employment lawyer?

Original poster

cocoloco23 · 30/10/2023 00:47

FSTraining · 30/10/2023 00:21

@cocoloco23 You're not working for La Fosse are you?

No..?

OP posts:

Original poster

cocoloco23 · 30/10/2023 00:51

Savoury · 30/10/2023 00:32

My understanding was that the reason for no notice period was because if you resign, Company A can insist that intermediary meets the terms of their contract, I.e. they provide a skilled person with your profile immediately. The intermediary sees that as too much risk despite being a recruitment firm (usually) or management consultancy and insists on no notice period.
Can you talk to an employment lawyer?

That makes a lot of sense - thank you.

I think I’m going to have to find the money to talk to an employment lawyer.

The situation is made more complicated by the fact that I need to stay on good terms with Company A. I’m being deliberately vague but they’re huge in my industry. The chances of me needing to work for them again in the future are very high.

OP posts:

Savoury · 30/10/2023 07:06

Just a thought but is there any chance you can talk to someone at Company A HR team?

If a regulated business like a bank, everyone is covered by so-called industry wide conduct rules and that includes vendors and temporary staff. They might be helpful as no notice seems unreasonable.

Remember that we don’t know what their contract is with the intermediary. It might not say zero notice on that contract.

I appreciate it’s a bit of a mess and it might be easier to just go.. Re staying friendly it’s always a good idea if you can. But many contractors have one that didn’t quite work out well! Companies speak to each other much less than people think.

AlisonDonut · 30/10/2023 07:09

Is the bullying coming from Company A people? If so, why do you want to stay on good terms?

topnoddy · 30/10/2023 07:31

I'd just give a weeks notice to the agency and move to the other job .

The contract says expected to see out the contract doesn't it

Springwillcome · 30/10/2023 07:50

Not a lawyer (anymore) but…

There’s what your contract says about notice, and there’s other issues too. If you’re being bullied at work to the extent you can no longer stay, then Company A / the recruitment company are probably already in breach of contract, which could theoretically give you the right to say it was THEM who terminated it through breaching their general duty of good faith, and you can walk away… Just a thought.

Practically speaking it seems to me that you speak to the recruitment agency and say that employees of Company A are making it impossible for you to do your job and you intend to leave asap, that you’d rather go amicably on good terms with everyone but you’ll get lawyers involved if you have to. See what they say. Renegotiate. But if they say “you have to stay until May 2024 and that is that” then you reply unfortunately that is impossible because of the behaviour of xyz people at Company A, so I’ll have to get lawyers involved then.

FSTraining · 30/10/2023 08:05

cocoloco23 · 30/10/2023 00:47

No..?

Show quote history

Don't worry, they're just sitting at the top of the list of "intermediaries who should be sued" right now for the kind of practice you mention. Customers like Ford hire their employees who face huge penalties if they try to quit early.

Until such a test case, the best thing I can recommend you do is make their practice backfire. Turn up late, browse the web, make lots of cups of tea, spread salacious gossip. Not too blatantly, just to be slightly disappointing as an employee in a noticeable way. And always leave on time, switching all devices off.

Give it a couple of weeks and offer to terminate early.

WitchDancer · 30/10/2023 08:13

If you've got household insurance, it's worth checking to see if you have cover for employment.

Failing that, I would contact ACAS and seek their advice.

Original poster

cocoloco23 · 30/10/2023 10:31

Thank you both.

OP posts:

ACGTHelix · 30/10/2023 20:48

In your case, it seems that your contract states that your notice period is "N/A – Expected to see out the contract." This could be interpreted as an understanding that your employment is expected to continue until the specified end date of the contract, which is May 2024. This does not necessarily mean that you cannot leave before May 2024, but rather that the expectation is for you to fulfill the terms of the contract until that date.

However, the enforceability of such terms can vary, and legal considerations can come into play. It's crucial to consider the employment laws in your jurisdiction, as they may impose certain restrictions on notice periods and termination clauses.