Page 6 | My sister wants to sue me to for mortgage payments on our joint flat, even though I didn't live there

CorylusAgain · 18/10/2023 15:09

pam290358 · 18/10/2023 15:06

@Whataretheodds is correct. It’s called occupational rent. In law, her sister is liable to pay the OP market rent for her half of the flat if she was living there alone - regardless of who pays the mortgage, and providing both names are on the deeds. The OP needs to take legal advice - case law suggests that if one party left voluntarily and stopped paying their share of the mortgage then it’s unlikely they would get a court order for occupational rent, however, if her sister sued her for the missed mortgage payments, I think occupational rent value would be factored in.

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Occupational rent was dealt with way up thread.
It is not relevant to this situation.

pam290358 · 18/10/2023 15:15

FarEast · 18/10/2023 15:06

Yes, the sale has already completed and solicitors paid us both equally.

No wonder your sister is now asking for your share of the costs. This is totally unfair and I don’t blame your sister. You are being mean.

Ypu need to have your share of the costs you haven’t paid taken out of your share of the profits from the sale. Anything else is completely unfair. It’s saying something about you that you don’t see this.

If you read the OPs second post she quite clearly says they paid the costs jointly.

saffronsoup · 18/10/2023 15:15

Your agreement was fine that you move out and take over the mortgage. What wasn't fine was for you to get 50% of the proceeds of the house. She put more of her money into the house (2 years worth of mortgage payments) and yuo don't get to take her money back in equity.

You should have money now given you have received 50% of the sale. Figure out what percentage is owed her and give it to her. You aren't paying her mortgage payments, you are just giving back the equity that wasn't yours in the first place.

Lotus717 · 18/10/2023 15:17

OP, You said you discussed all this with your parents 2 years ago. What do they think about your sister threatening to sue you?

SurprisedWithAHorse · 18/10/2023 15:17

You need proper legal advice but I'd have thought giving your sister a proportionate amount from the proceeds of the sale would go a long way towards healing this. Will you?

Whataretheodds · 18/10/2023 15:18

Even if occupational rent doesn't apply here, OP retained 50% ownership of the property, therefore entitled to 50% proceeds of sale.

Both were jointly and severally liable for the mortgage, mortgage was paid by sister (with her agreement). Sister enjoyed full occupation of the property.

OP was neither able to sell to release her capital nor rent the flat because her sister continued to occupy it.

Greenpolkadot · 18/10/2023 15:19

Comefromaway · 18/10/2023 13:33

There is a thread from the point of view of the sister except that says 16 years, not 6

So where is it then?

Longdarkcloud · 18/10/2023 15:20

I don’t understand why people consider the OP has ripped her sister off.
Sister was given extra time to sell at her request, despite agreement that in those circumstances the place would be sold.
Sister stated it would be cheaper for her to pay all the mortgage in the interim than it would be to rent alternative property.
Sister has now had second thoughts (possibly after talking to friends with the same view as some of the posters here) but that does not give her grounds to repudiate the written agreement.
The OP could have minimised her expenses by either moving her boyfriend in or subletting her room but Sister did not want this. Thus the OP relied on the agreement to what would be her disadvantage if she knew the Sister would attempt to renege on the agreement.

FSTraining · 18/10/2023 15:22

Confused20232023 · 18/10/2023 13:28

My sister and I bought a flat together about 6 years ago (our parents helped us with the deposit if that matters) which we lived in together. About 2 years ago we talked about selling the flat because I wanted to move in with my boyfriend. My sister couldn't afford to buy me out so we agreed that she would pay the mortgage and all bills on the flat until we sold. We have this in writing on email and Whatsapp texts, and we also discussed this with our parents.

We eventually sold the flat (a whole story to itself!), and now my sister is saying that I should have paid the mortgage over the 2 years (when I wasn't living there), and is threatening to sue me to make me pay. Does she have a case if we have something in writing to say that she would pay all mortgage and bills while she lived there? I'm getting worried as we can't afford to pay her, and my boyfriend and I are planning on starting a family, so every pound counts!

We are in England.

In contract law she doesn't have a case. She agreed to pay the full mortgage in return for sole occupancy of the flat. You have that evidenced in writing in email and texts which, whilst less ideal than a formal contract, on the balance of probabilities looks reasonable and would be expected where someone is the sole occupant.

In trust law I'm not so sure and I'm not sure what the equitable solution would be. Where she has been solely paying the mortgage, arguably she has paid more for the property than you and there's been no conversation about occupational rent. She might be able to argue a constructive trust entitling her to slightly more than half of the property.

I would suspect though that contract law would prevail here. The other avenue would probably cost a lot in legal fees for her to pursue with a less than 20% chance of any success!

CliantheLang · 18/10/2023 15:22

This one? Walls of text tend to make me suspicious.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4921536-sister-demands-half-the-profit-from-the-sale-of-the-house-after-not-paying-for-16-years

Page 4 | Sister demands half the profit from the sale of the house after not paying for 16 years. | Mumsnet

Usual disclaimer- all names have been changed for privacy.      I (41F) bought a house with my younger sister Claudia (34F) 17 y...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4921536-sister-demands-half-the-profit-from-the-sale-of-the-house-after-not-paying-for-16-years?reply=129997048

ImADevYo · 18/10/2023 15:24

Longdarkcloud · 18/10/2023 15:20

I don’t understand why people consider the OP has ripped her sister off.
Sister was given extra time to sell at her request, despite agreement that in those circumstances the place would be sold.
Sister stated it would be cheaper for her to pay all the mortgage in the interim than it would be to rent alternative property.
Sister has now had second thoughts (possibly after talking to friends with the same view as some of the posters here) but that does not give her grounds to repudiate the written agreement.
The OP could have minimised her expenses by either moving her boyfriend in or subletting her room but Sister did not want this. Thus the OP relied on the agreement to what would be her disadvantage if she knew the Sister would attempt to renege on the agreement.

Same here. No idea why people are shitting on the OP.
They both own the flat either one of them can make a decision to move out.

sandyhappypeople · 18/10/2023 15:25

Technically you should have continued to pay half the mortgage as it was a joint asset, which you BOTH stand to benefit equally from upon it's sale, you can't just opt out of it, as you signed to legally be 50% responsible for it and you haven't been, are both your names on the mortgage & deeds?

You also should have had the flat valued when you moved out and come up with a plan as to what you would do when it sold, but this is no doubt a common thing within families as you do what you need to do and trust each other at the time.

I think she took on the flat and wanted to stay in it so has essentially agreed to those terms you set out, but in fairness to her, it's you that forced that upon her, even if you'd put the flat on the market immediately it was no guarantee it would sell straight away, so she'd have still ended up paying for everything while you moved out and left her to it.

You were the catalyst for it, but it's a bit 'half a dozen of one, 6 of another' type situation which is best sorted out amicably, what do your parents say, could they mediate? What happened to their money?

TeenagersAngst · 18/10/2023 15:26

@BarnacleBeasley CGT won't be due at all regardless of the profit unless either sister owns another property.

Puffalicious · 18/10/2023 15:26

OP if your sister wants 2yrs of half the mortgage payments from you, I'd countersue for 2yrs of half market rental value from her. That's fair. Or you can both stick to the original agreement where you co owned the property and were entitled to 50% of the equity each upon sale, but your sister paid the mortgage alone for 2yrs because she lived there alone. She's the one trying to change the agreement now

Totally agree. She didn't want OP moving her BF in, so had the options of selling or getting a lodger. She doesn't get to drag her heels then want all the benefit.

I just don't get PP saying the sister has been shafted. She had options she didn't want to take.

ImADevYo · 18/10/2023 15:27

FSTraining · 18/10/2023 15:22

In contract law she doesn't have a case. She agreed to pay the full mortgage in return for sole occupancy of the flat. You have that evidenced in writing in email and texts which, whilst less ideal than a formal contract, on the balance of probabilities looks reasonable and would be expected where someone is the sole occupant.

In trust law I'm not so sure and I'm not sure what the equitable solution would be. Where she has been solely paying the mortgage, arguably she has paid more for the property than you and there's been no conversation about occupational rent. She might be able to argue a constructive trust entitling her to slightly more than half of the property.

I would suspect though that contract law would prevail here. The other avenue would probably cost a lot in legal fees for her to pursue with a less than 20% chance of any success!

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I'm also wondering whether any of this is worth pursuing at all.
Let's say OP's half of the mortgage on a 2 bed flat is £400 2 years brings that to about 5K.

Surely legal fees will be at least a few grand? Even a simple house sale is about 1K I doubt that anything involving court is much cheaper.

If she was somewhere expensive like London maybe that would be double but still the rural value of the mortgage payments would be close to 10K. If the case drags on all of that would be eaten up by legal fees.

Unless home insurance legal cover will pay for this sort of thing?

Puffalicious · 18/10/2023 15:28

Technically you should have continued to pay half the mortgage as it was a joint asset, which you BOTH stand to benefit equally from upon it's sale, you can't just opt out of it, as you signed to legally be 50% responsible for it and you haven't been, are both your names on the mortgage & deeds?

Yes, and technically the DS should have allowed a lodger to pay OP's part of the mortgage/ bf to move in / agreed to the sale.

Nearlyadoctor · 18/10/2023 15:29

I think that unless your sister paid you rent for your half then a 50-50 split is fair. If she was was paying you rent it’s a different matter.

fruitbrewhaha · 18/10/2023 15:31

What an I reading? You’ve done nothing wrong op. Your sister had the flat to herself so has it cost her more. It’s a shame you didn’t rent out your room there for a profit and continue to pay the mortgage. Or charged your sister half the market rent and continued paying the mortgage. As for shafting your sister? Are posters suggesting the sisters live together forever?

newfriend05 · 18/10/2023 15:31

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Totally agree with this .. OP you didn't deserve 50/50

BarnacleBeasley · 18/10/2023 15:31

TeenagersAngst · 18/10/2023 15:26

@BarnacleBeasley CGT won't be due at all regardless of the profit unless either sister owns another property.

Exactly - a PP was suggesting the OP would be liable but it's hard to see that she would be even if she does own another property at this point.

whynotwhatknot · 18/10/2023 15:32

shouldnt she have sorted this out before the sale-her solicitor could have advised if she could have more or not

CuriousGeorge80 · 18/10/2023 15:32

Too many unknowns to know what is reasonable.

what was the sale price now compared to what it would have been if sold 2 years ago?
what is the mortgage size now compared to two years ago (ie how much has your sister paid off in the last two years)?
what would rent have been if she has moved out in to a one bed flat? (Would it have been more than the mortgage payment was?)

With the above known, people could advise on what would be a fair split now of the sale proceeds. It seems very unlikely that 50/50 split of the sales proceeds now is fair, but that doesn’t mean you should deduct 50% of the mortgage costs.

TedMullins · 18/10/2023 15:35

No idea of the legal position but morally I don’t think you should get equal proceeds from the sale. Your half of the mortgage repayments should be deducted from your share and given to her.

MargotBamborough · 18/10/2023 15:36

Tempnamechng · 18/10/2023 13:35

You can't expect 50% of the sale proceeds if you haven't been contributing to the asset purchase for 2 years.

Why not?

If the OP had paid half the mortgage during that time, her sister should have been paying her rent.

Ilovelifeverymuch · 18/10/2023 15:36

FiveGoMadInDorset · 18/10/2023 13:30

Will you be expecting equal amount of money from the sale?

I would expect equality share of the sale proceeds unless OPs sister was paying rent for OPs share of the property. If she was paying rent then yes OP should have paid her share of the mortgage, if she didn't pay rent then no OP should not have paid part of the mortgage and proceeds should be split equally .

But as others have said it would be wise to get legal advice.