Civil Service - cut in salary

[EthelBasket]

I’m a civil servant grade 7. My job was upgraded to grade 6, and I did this job for five years on temporary promotion (jobs are time limited in my department and you can’t stay in a job for more than 5 years unless you’re a specialist). I understood that I would stay on the G6 salary on mark time until I either got promoted substantively or my G7 salary caught up. I’ve now been told that this isn’t the case and my salary has dropped by £7000. Is this legal? I have looked at the guidance and it isn’t very clear. The same thing happened to my husband a few years ago and he kept the higher salary until he was promoted.

In my department you would never have remained on TP for 5 years?

Was the job never advertised so that you could secure the promotion?

I think it sounds right tho as the post hasn't been made substantive. Are you a member of the union?

The job was advertised at the end of the five years, which is normal. I could not apply for it. But as I was locked into this job I couldn’t apply for any other jobs at G6 either.

Sadly I think it is legal. Temporary promotion is just that, temporary. You should have asked for the job to be advertised and applied before the end of the 5 years. I suppose they paid you for the higher grade work you did. You should be able to apply for promotions outside of your department though. What is stopping you doing this? You say you have to move departments anyway as you have served the maximum 5 years. I know some departments are on a recruitment freeze ATM.

You should be able to apply for Grade 6 jobs now. You will have lots of grad 6 examples to use for the competencies.

So your salary has gone down because you are now a Grade 7 again and not a grade 6?

That's normal.

But in my Dept, you wouldn't be allowed to be on TP for more than a year so this situation could never arise.

Your substantive grade remains your substantive grade. Just had a similar situation with a member of my team. He’s been on numerous TDA’s/TP’s for years. Post has now been advertised and if he doesn’t get it as a promotion he goes back to his substantive grade.

Having said that within my CS branch TDA’s etc are a % that take you no higher than the bottom of the next grade.

@caringcarer nothing to stop me now from applying for G6 jobs internally or externally. Unfortunately I’ve had an exceptionally shit time of late (multiple bereavements) and hadn’t got my head around applying for other jobs. I had expected a small drop in salary but not this much.

I’m a G6 and this is correct, although as others have said I’m interested as to which department you work for as TP for 5 years is very uncommon. But yes, I did TP to G6 for a maternity cover a couple of years ago. When she returned I dropped back down to G7 and my G7 salary. I got my G6 not long after by moving roles though given the competencies I’d built in the TP role.

It’s really not uncommon in my department. I know people who have been on TP for about 15 years, although some have been made substantive since they stopped the exam hoop you had to jump through for each level.

Apparently I’d have got mark time if my G6 salary had exceeded the top of the G7 pay scale, and it didn’t. Although with the pay rise coming in, it may do, and I was told that they would have another look at it once the pay deal had been sorted.

5 years on TP?! What a scam. What department are you in?

So how does this work with employment legislation that says after 5 years you have permanent rights to the post ? Genuine question for civil service staff.

Sorry 4 years!

I think you are referring to legislation that says you automatically become a permanent employee if you are on fixed term contracts for 4 or more years. That does not apply in this situation. OP is already a permanent employee. The temporary promotion is not a fixed term contract.

Provided there is a written agreement in place which makes it clear that the promotion is temporary regardless of how long it lasts, the employee cannot argue that the promotion has become permanent.

It’s less the promotion being substantive that worries me and more the drop in salary.

I assume you’re FCDO? They seem to do things differently to most departments, and are the only - or perhaps one of very few - department that locks people in to posts for years.

Id contact the FDA if you want to challenge it.

Same as others though - TP is time limited in my department, you can’t do more than 2 years. And to be honest, I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect that you’d keep a G6 salary once you returned to a G7 job.

Good luck applying for other roles. Same as a PP, I did a TP to a higher grade to cover a maternity leave and, when it ended, dropped back down to my substantive salary - but shortly after that, gained a promotion using the competencies I had built up during my TP. I hope you can do the same especially as you’ve done the job at the higher grade for several years.

Ps the split between G6 and G7 in departments that used ‘Band A’ seems to have universally been a total shitshow. You have my sympathies.

In my department, if your Band A role became a G6, you had to apply for your own job, or you’d be assigned a different G7 role. And if you were on secondment, loan or parental leave at the time - as I was - it was up to your manager to represent to HR whether you were likely to want to be a G6. The result was that I, and a number of others, lost out on thousands of pounds because of lazy or malicious managers.

Of course you go back to your substantive grade. Until you go through open and fair competition for a G6 you remain a G7. So end of the TP, end of G6.

The mark time rules changed in the last ten years in lots of departments. Mark time meant there was no incentive to apply for a promotion to the grade you were being paid at - why would you, if you could get eg a G6 salary while doing G7 level of work/carrying a G7 level of risk? Which is just what some people were doing.

It hasn’t been used in the HQ of my department for years.

I’m sorry for the nasty shock you’ve had though.

You put this much more clearly and concisely than I did!

I found my original letter when I got my TP which says that when it ends I will go onto mark time, if I don’t pick up a G6 job straightaway. I might speak to the union. I think I’ve come to the end of the road with the civil service. It was fun while it lasted, but I think it’s time to move on.

Great that you’ve found the letter! I would simply show that to your manager, it’s hard to argue with.

And on civil service - I know the feeling. Good luck.

I’ll need to check but I thought the legislation says you have a permanent right to the post… otherwuse you could enjoy someone for 4 years as a manager and punt them down to an assistant to make them redundant…

@EthelBasket I found my original letter when I got my TP which says that when it ends I will go onto mark time, if I don’t pick up a G6 job straightaway. I might speak to the union.

It is extremely unusual to have this written into a TP letter, normally they are crystal clear you have no right to the higher grade or salary. I would talk to your TU and then send the letter to HR asking why they are not honouring this.

Whilst on TP both your substantive G7 and your TP G6 will have increased through pay awards. If you secure a G6 role I would expect them to do a comparison e.g. G7 plus % promotion vs TP G6 salary and honour the higher of the two.