Discovered rental doesn't have HMO licence - what are the issues with that?

[HMOConcerns]

...Apart from it's probably illegal obviously.

Just discovered that the house that student daughter and three friends are renting for the coming year does not have an HMO licence. I had let them deal with everything because, well, they're adults, but I don't really blame them for not knowing about/considering this when they signed the rental contract. I've only latterly got involved because there are issues that the Agent is not sorting out.

I only went to see the property recently when I dropped DD off with her stuff, she came back home with me and will move in properly at the beginning of the academic year. I think a couple of the others are moving in now though.

The house is a shit tip. That's ok, most of it is just going to require a lot of elbow grease, although it should have been cleaned before they moved in, but I'm not that concerned. What I am concerned about is safety. So for instance, there are no fire doors anywhere, two of the doors that would be escape routes to outside have keys on the inside to lock them (so if they were locked and key was removed, no one can get out), no fire extinguishers/blankets, none of the furniture has fire safe labels (and frankly just from looking I'd say there's no way they'd meet current regs). Also the gas meter is in a bedroom, the Agent has suggested in order to ensure there is access in emergencies (to turn of gas in event of a leak) that that tenant provides everyone with the key code to their private room!

There's lots of cosmetic issues that the Agent told them would be sorted before they moved in but haven't been and now they have moved in the Agent is pushing back saying they don't need to be done (mould removal in bathrooms, broken cupboards, flaking paint, damaged flooring, broken furniture amongst other things). So basically the Agent is not forthcoming in sorting issues. Lots of these issues weren't really apparent when they viewed the house last year as it was full of other peoples stuff. I have no idea if any of these things would be deemed an impediment to getting an HMO licence but obviously if there are any issues that the Agent/Landlord refuses to sort out then reporting them to the local authority would highlight that there is no HMO licence.

I don't know why there has been no application for HMO, I presume that it's because there's a chance it wouldn't be granted due to over load of HMOs in the local area, or some other reason like it suits the Landlord to avoid scrutiny, but I'm not sure what to do about it. The Agent claims the Landlord will be applying, but:
A. I don't believe them, based on communication from them so far and
B. It was rented out for at least the last year with multiple occupants and no HMO licence so they've been operating for some time without bothering.

I presume if I reported it then there's a chance DD and friends would lose their accommodation if the licence wasn't granted? On the other hand, is it a risk to them if there is no HMO licence?

I think the number of people makes an HMO that need a licence is dependent on the local council, and 4 is under the national limit, but may require a licence in some areas. I'd start by checking the council website. Yes, there's a chance they might lose the accommodation, but it's more likely the landlord will pull their socks up and fix the issues to retain his income.

Is it an HMO though? I thought by definition in an HMO every individual has their own separate rental agreement with the landlord. If your daughter is renting with friends did they not jointly rent the whole house under one single agreement? In which case I don't believe it would meet the definition of an HMO.

https://landlordsdefence.co.uk/does-my-property-need-an-hmo-licence/#:~:text=If%20you%20have%20three%20or,%E2%80%9CAdditional%20HMO%20Licensing%E2%80%9D%20scheme.

It varies from council to council by the looks of it. You haven't said whether it's just the 4 of them or the 4 of them moving into a larger place with more occupants.

If there are only 4 of them moving in then doesn't need an actual licence, but it is classed as a HMO.
Landlord needs to ensure they comply with HMO Management Regs (2006) - if the property is in England.
Check the local council's website, their environmental health team deal with housing standards and enforcement.

You need to look up the local council regulations for HMOs to see whether the property requires a licence and what the local regulations are eg there will probably be rules on the size of bedrooms, the size of shared facilities, provision of cooking facilities, fire safety etc but they vary from council to council.

If changes were agreed about cosmetic issues that should have been put in writing when your DD and friends made the offer (there is usually a form). Otherwise, you have no real comeback.

Any safety issues would be dealt with by the environmental health team at the council.

The landlord will have to fix or replace broken furniture if the property is let as furnished but they don't have to do anything about cosmetic issues. The tenants should have check they were happy when they viewed the property. The mould is a health issue and tenants can (in theory) sue landlords for compensation mould issues (health problems, damage to personal possessions) if they don't fix them but it depends on the cause ie whether it is structural (the landlord's responsibility) or environmental (often the tenant's fault eg not adequately ventilating the property). If there are no fire safety labels on soft furnishings/mattresses that is illegal, the landlord will have to replace them. Make sure all the defects/issues are in the inventory.

If the landlord doesn't get a licence, not only can he be fined, the tenants can go to court for a rent repayment order to get their rent back.

Also, make sure that the cleaning issues are noted in the inventory too!

This is what I was thinking too .

The definition of an hmo varies from council to council, 4 and under with no locks on bedrooms may not count

It is definitely required to be licensed under the local authority it’s in - I’ve double checked. Also the fact that the agent has said the landlord is applying confirms they know it requires it. However they have said the landlord is applying for an ‘updated’ licence which implies it’s just the periodical update to an existing licence, it isn’t I know as I have checked with the local authority and they do not have this address on their list of HMO licensed properties.
The agent is not doing things that are required and is denying that they have said other things will be done (verbally, not in writing unfortunately - DD and friends lesson learnt there!). So, I know I could make a complaint to the local authority to get this done (it’s the safety aspects I’m concerned about really) but if that highlights there is no HMO I’m concerned they lose their accommodation, and then they’re screwed as there’s a huge shortage and we’re coming up to clearing so they would really struggle to get anywhere else. If we know there is no HMO are we obliged to report it?

Personally, and this might be just me, if it's supposed to be an HMO with all the enhanced fire protection, I'd be concentrating on helping them find somewhere else if all you're getting is verbal bluster from the agent.

It seems like all the issues you've mentioned so far are the tip of an iceberg and the LL is likely to shirk off as much as possible.

I know they definitely need an HMO licence but I am struggling to find a comprehensive list of requirements under the particular LA to show exactly what is required. So room sizes, sockets, door locks etc I can’t be sure about atm. I am sure about the fire safety aspects though.

Cosmetic changes were agreed by the Agent that showed them round. So verbal, however it was listed on the Agents website under the address’s property file - but, feigns shock, they have since removed them from the property file (I have a screenshot though…) - regardless the Agent is saying they’re not obliged to carry them out.

All the defects/issues were attempted to be reported to them via their inventory portal. The software didn’t work. We called to tell them this on numerous occasions, they said keep trying, we did right up to the deadline. I’m the end I made DD to a lengthy date stamped email including pictures in lieu of their software working. Call me cynical but after seeing their reviews from many others claim they operate ‘strategic incompetence’ I’m slightly suspicious of that. Their software for reporting issues is also not working…

And yes I know that the fines can be unlimited and about RRO. I just don’t know whether reporting them will actually help DD as if the end result is they lose the accommodation then what 🤷‍♀️ .

I agree but short of the property being deemed uninhabitable (as in falling down) I don’t think we can get out of the short term tenancy agreement, and, it would be really difficult to get any other affordable accommodation at this stage for start of the academic year. Luckily it’s only for this year and DD will have had a steep learning curve so will be better prepared next year. My other DD is in accommodation in a different city and all is perfect and done as it should be. This landlord/agent seems to think they can do what they like. Don’t worry I won’t be leaving it, I will keep on at them. The thing that has really pissed me off is these are four students, who all come from nice homes with parents to help them, and are only having to put up with this shoddiness for one year, but, this agent and possibly landlord will be renting filthy substandard homes to people and families who don’t have a choice.

Presumably, if your DD has moved stuff in, the contract has started so the landlord can't pull out? They have a 12 month AST?

The landlord can't evict them to get out of needing an HMO licence. In fact, they can't serve a section 21 notice if they need a licence and don't have one so they won't be able to serve notice at the end of the contract. I believe the council will take over management of the property if they refuse to grant the landord an HMO licence because it is not up to standard. You should call the council HMO licensing team and ask. They should also be able to direct you to the local rules on HMO standards (HMO standards + the name of borough is the best way to find them through google IME). If you want to PM me the borough, I can try and find them for you.

The university should also be able to give legal advice (usually welfare or the accomodation office). You can also try Shelter (very busy though) or CAB. There will probably be a free housing legal advice clinic in the borough. The local fire service will also do free fire safety checks. You can ask environmental health to do an HSSRH (health and safety standards for rented homes) check if there are issues with mould/fire regs/HMO standards/security (ie the person with a gas meter in their bedroom has to share their door code).

I would chase the letting agent if you have screenshots of the work that was agreed. Are they a member of ARLA? They will have to be a member of a property redress scheme by law, so you can make a complaint (and ask for compensation) if they have broken any laws (you have to raise it as a complaint with the letting agent first though). I would look up the laws/trading standards on misrepresentation ie they told them that the landlord was getting an HMO licence and that work would be done, and the lease was signed in that believe. You may be able to end the contract within 90 days or claim compensation. You might also want to point out that the letting agent can also be held responsible for letting the property without an HMO licence. There is precedence - Camden Council prosecuted a letting agent who were not even the managing agent for the property but they had collected the money for the first month's rent and the deposit. My top tip would be that if the letting agent is unprofessional enough to have let the property without a licence in place, they are probably breaking other laws/regulations - check they have used the latest version of the How to Rent booklet, the EPC, gas/electrical safety, deposit protection, whether they are displaying fees in the office/online etc, property redress scheme membership etc

The email with the photos in lieu of the inventory will be fine for the deposit scheme if there is a dispute, as long as you have it in writing why you couldn't use the portal.

Thank you, that is all very helpful. Particularly knowing reporting doesn’t necessarily mean loss of accommodation. May I ask what your particular area of expertise is? Also happy to say the area is Cardiff so presumably South Glamorgan authority.

Also I’ve taken to following up every phone call with an email saying ‘just confirming what was discussed’. I’ve definitely got the impression after calling again today they are not used to being chased up and questioned continuously. The agent got very flustered and said they would call the council, they definitely did not want me to call them….

Also do you know where I can find a comprehensive list of what an HMO in the local authority has to comply with? Or do I just need to ask the LA?

Cardiff is Cardiff Council.

The general contact details are here
https://www.cardiff.gov.uk/ENG/Home/Contact-us/Pages/default.aspx

And the agents are probably used to being able to let anything with a roof to students. The city has three universities - or four if you include the College of Music and Drama - so there is huge competition for accommodation.

The SU can probably help with advice. https://www.cardiffstudents.com/advice/housing/

Get your DD to report it to the HMO team at the council. It needs to be reported by someone who actually lives there.

Wow, is this how involved parents get with their adult children at university these days? As long as her life isn't in danger, why are you making this your project? Seems a bit OTT if she hasn't asked you for help.

What, you don’t think noncompliance with fire regs mean a danger to life? The level of your intelligence isn’t really relevant to this issue tbh.

And if you bothered to read the thread, one of my concerns isn’t just my own DD, it’s the fucking shit standards of accommodation that landlords and agents get away with renting to people, specifically those people who may be less likely to be able to advocate for themselves, than either I or my DD are.

I'm a landlord and former volunteer housing legal rights advisor (not a lawyer), @HMOConcerns. I am also the parent of 2 students and have had exactly this fight on my hands (in London)...

Sorry, I only have time for a very quick google right now but there seems to be quite a bit on HMOs in Cardiff. This has the HMO standards, although I haven't checked for updates:

https://www.srs.wales/Documents/Housing/Fire-Safety-and-Amenity-Standards.pdf

I would also look at planning. It is possible that the landlord also needed planning permission.

And not sure where you get the impression she hasn’t asked for help from. Is it your reading or your comprehension that is challenged?