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Original poster

What have I allowed?

20 replies

Walkedallover1965 · 25/07/2023 08:16

I live in Scotland and share a very small garden with a neighbour, we do not get on!

I own, they rent from a private landlord. 5 years ago, they erected a fence, bolted into concrete, splitting the shared garden.

I didn’t do anything! I’m so angry at myself now but at the time the relationship was so volatile with them. I did email and question the Landlord who stated they weren’t bothered by what the neighbours had done.

I now may be selling and of course the deeds etc don’t match what’s here.

What can I do? Have I left it too late? I don’t and haven’t maintained or use the fence.

There is no speaking to the neighbour and the LL is next to useless if I’m honest.

Have I lost the right to ask for change?

OP posts:
Collaborate · 25/07/2023 08:26

I've no knowledge of Scottish land law but over the border you could simply remove the fence yourself and reinstate what was there before, though you'd almost certinly have to declare a dispute when selling.

Original poster
Walkedallover1965 · 25/07/2023 08:38

Collaborate · 25/07/2023 08:26

I've no knowledge of Scottish land law but over the border you could simply remove the fence yourself and reinstate what was there before, though you'd almost certinly have to declare a dispute when selling.

This is what really concerns me, I feel like I’m stuck between rock a hard place, I’m not sure what to do for the best.

Is it even possible to sell a home under these circumstances.

OP posts:
AnSolas · 25/07/2023 08:42

You ignore the people living in next door.

You get (pay for) the most expensive quote you possibly can get with a near schedule date and send it to the LL and ask the LL if the LL would prefer to organise their own work crew to remove the fence and make good the damage. Plus if the LL is not able to act by the quote date you will organise the work to be done so can the LL confirm if the payment will be by cash or bank transfer.

As they are poor neighbours I would also remind the LL of the obligation to prevent anti-social activity.

You will find that the LL will now be bothered about what their Renter did.

Worst case you are still stuck with the split garden and a legal bill, middle road you pay for removal, best case LL pays and charges Renter.

jennyjones198080 · 25/07/2023 08:44

You will use a solicitor to handle to sale - get their advice. This is worth paying a few pounds to get resolved

PragmaticWench · 25/07/2023 08:46

This would need to be resolved legally before you get into a sale. Get legal advice.

Alcemeg · 25/07/2023 08:48

The fence sounds like a good idea, though? Can you make it pretty with honeysuckle, clematis, roses etc?

Kyokyo · 25/07/2023 10:10

Does the fence make the garden look better or worse ? Personally i'd prefer a garden that's been split over having a to share a space.

I think that if the fence is staying, you and the landlord will need to go halves on having a new boundary lines drawn up so that the deeds match what is outside.

If the landlord doesn't want to go halves, then you need to inform him that the fence will have to be removed

TrueScrumptious · 25/07/2023 10:15

Can you and the landlord agree to officially change the garden into two sections? I suppose that will cost something and the land boundaries would have to be changed? Might be worth asking a solicitor.

InstantGratificationDarkPlaygroundOfMN · 25/07/2023 10:25

Why do you want to change it back if you only own half?
The gate would be a selling point for me personally.
I like to know where I stand and what's mine and I love privacy and would hate sharing/having an open land agreement.

AnSolas · 25/07/2023 10:40

InstantGratificationDarkPlaygroundOfMN · 25/07/2023 10:25

Why do you want to change it back if you only own half?
The gate would be a selling point for me personally.
I like to know where I stand and what's mine and I love privacy and would hate sharing/having an open land agreement.

She owns 100% of the garden along with the LL who owns next door.
So her "50%" is still owned by the LL who could move the fence across the gate and plant a veggie patch etc on "her" side and claim all.

She knew that she had an open land agreement when she bought the property.

In order to get you to buy it ("I like to know where I stand and what's mine") she would have to get the LL to agree to sell /give her full ownership of the land on "her" side and pay for the legal work needed.
The LL has no legal obligation to sell.
To force the sale OP would have to ask the courts to make a ruling.
If the land is not sold to the OP, the new owners are buying into a land dispute which can only be resolved by going to court and getting a judge to force a solution. That likely would end being an injunction on how the garden can be used.

Original poster
Walkedallover1965 · 25/07/2023 12:35

Thank you all for reply’s.

Unfortunately the garden hasn’t improved, as it’s so small we are each left with a strip approx 6ft wide an unsightly fence to look at on what is classed on my side but my biggest fear is as I’ve left it it can be considered as accepted?

I can’t do anything to the fence as it’s not mine either. Feeling a bit trapped by it all.

OP posts:
AnSolas · 25/07/2023 13:19

Walkedallover1965 · 25/07/2023 12:35

Thank you all for reply’s.

Unfortunately the garden hasn’t improved, as it’s so small we are each left with a strip approx 6ft wide an unsightly fence to look at on what is classed on my side but my biggest fear is as I’ve left it it can be considered as accepted?

I can’t do anything to the fence as it’s not mine either. Feeling a bit trapped by it all.

You need to speak to your solicitor about how Scottish law applies to the land.

The solicitor should be able to give you options and an estimate of the costs involved.

Unless the LL wants to get into a legal fight with you over the land what the Renter has done means nothing.

The LL would have to claim adverse posession via the Renter. If at the time LL said it was not the LL's fence or LL had given permission, it would be hard to now say that it is proof of AP

You can have decided that you were ok with a fence locking the troublesome person living next door into a smaller section of your land rather than having them freely frollic around the whole garden.

Short term the Renter can cause problems for you with driving off potential buyers.

You are moving, so long term, do you care if you fall out now?
If you pull the fence and posted the materials back in their front door and fence them out how would the LL react?

The Renter has no legal right to the land unless the LL had already gotten the right and given the Renter permission to act on the LL's behalf.
The LL may have given the Renter extra unenforcable (not a) rights, but that is a contract problem between the 2 of them.

Do you think that the LL is willing to go to court to get the strip of land?

Original poster
Walkedallover1965 · 25/07/2023 14:21

AnSolas · 25/07/2023 13:19

You need to speak to your solicitor about how Scottish law applies to the land.

The solicitor should be able to give you options and an estimate of the costs involved.

Unless the LL wants to get into a legal fight with you over the land what the Renter has done means nothing.

The LL would have to claim adverse posession via the Renter. If at the time LL said it was not the LL's fence or LL had given permission, it would be hard to now say that it is proof of AP

You can have decided that you were ok with a fence locking the troublesome person living next door into a smaller section of your land rather than having them freely frollic around the whole garden.

Short term the Renter can cause problems for you with driving off potential buyers.

You are moving, so long term, do you care if you fall out now?
If you pull the fence and posted the materials back in their front door and fence them out how would the LL react?

The Renter has no legal right to the land unless the LL had already gotten the right and given the Renter permission to act on the LL's behalf.
The LL may have given the Renter extra unenforcable (not a) rights, but that is a contract problem between the 2 of them.

Do you think that the LL is willing to go to court to get the strip of land?

Show quote history

Thank you for your reply.

I doubt the LL would want the expense of making any official change, nor would I if I’m honest. The strip is so small it’s not worth having it as private space.

This was done without any consultation from renter or LL and at the time I had been subject to so much harassment from the renter I just left it.

LL was aware of the harassment as the ASBO from our local authority forced them into taking action but I was told I couldn’t be given the outcome of the meeting due to data protection.

OP posts:
hedgehoglurker · 25/07/2023 14:30

Not a lawyer. Would installing an unlocked gate or creating a gap in the fence work? Then you could access and have use of the full garden (at least in theory), but the fence simply marks the halfway point.

AnSolas · 25/07/2023 14:53

Ok then, you need to only deal with the LL.

You may be entitled to any data on the outcome around how access to your land was to be managed by the LL. But I would try keep what ifs about the Renter out of the conversation with the LL

You need to descide how much the " LL's strip" is worth as part of your total sale.
House and smaller garden = ?
House and full garden + passing on problem Renter = ?

You can decide to pay all the legal fees to split the land and see this as a sunk cost of moving. Assuming the LL agrees this may be the cheaper stress free way to a quicker sale at a better price.

If you are paying the fees anyway you could make the LL a cheeky offer to buy the full garden free and clear.

If you decide on keeping the full garden you then work with the LL on what is needed to ensure the potential buyer dont do the legal bits and then pull their offer. Eg is the ASBO still in effect? Will the LL put in a gate on the fence? LL signs a letter confirming the LL recognises your ownership rights?

Once the buyer sees the legal and actual dont match they are pricing in loosing "your side" of the garden. If your house is sale agreed and then the sale falls through the next buyer is asking themselves if they missed a problem, they do the legal.....etc.

Original poster
Walkedallover1965 · 26/07/2023 07:50

AnSolas · 25/07/2023 14:53

Ok then, you need to only deal with the LL.

You may be entitled to any data on the outcome around how access to your land was to be managed by the LL. But I would try keep what ifs about the Renter out of the conversation with the LL

You need to descide how much the " LL's strip" is worth as part of your total sale.
House and smaller garden = ?
House and full garden + passing on problem Renter = ?

You can decide to pay all the legal fees to split the land and see this as a sunk cost of moving. Assuming the LL agrees this may be the cheaper stress free way to a quicker sale at a better price.

If you are paying the fees anyway you could make the LL a cheeky offer to buy the full garden free and clear.

If you decide on keeping the full garden you then work with the LL on what is needed to ensure the potential buyer dont do the legal bits and then pull their offer. Eg is the ASBO still in effect? Will the LL put in a gate on the fence? LL signs a letter confirming the LL recognises your ownership rights?

Once the buyer sees the legal and actual dont match they are pricing in loosing "your side" of the garden. If your house is sale agreed and then the sale falls through the next buyer is asking themselves if they missed a problem, they do the legal.....etc.

Thank you, unfortunately I am not in a position to buy the strip of land, also because of the size visually it looks ridiculous, all it really is is a bin storage part. Also the neighbour still has to use my part to take the bin through so it’s still not really mine. It’s worked well for them due to layout but not so much for me.

LL doesn’t respond to my any longer, I’ve obviously been a pain and they are probably aware I can not use legal advice.

OP posts:
Maddy70 · 26/07/2023 07:55

I have no idea about the legal aspect here but would it be possible to come to some arrangement with the owner next door. I would be far more likely to buy a home with a separate garden than a shared one. So it could add value to your home. But it would need clarification in law if you are both happy to have the fence ...

You need to see a solicitor

Original poster
Walkedallover1965 · 26/07/2023 08:03

Maddy70 · 26/07/2023 07:55

I have no idea about the legal aspect here but would it be possible to come to some arrangement with the owner next door. I would be far more likely to buy a home with a separate garden than a shared one. So it could add value to your home. But it would need clarification in law if you are both happy to have the fence ...

You need to see a solicitor

Hello, this I thought too, as at first I was concerned that neighbour could decide again to create another boundary.

I asked and LL wasn’t interested in making anything official, even just through an agreement ourselves.

I feel so stupid, I have absolutely no control or say in place and I have the privilege of paying an ever increasing mortgage.

OP posts:
PragmaticWench · 26/07/2023 08:17

I'm not sure why you say you have no control? You legally own the land, along with the LL neighbour. The tenant doesn't. Use your solicitor to get your neighbour to remove the fence.

AnSolas · 26/07/2023 12:07

Conditions have changed.
You are now legaly obliged to engage legal services to finalise the sale and will have cash from the sale.

You are are moving so not "buying it" your buyer will be paying the extra to get rid of the LL.
You are selling your house and shared garden. To deal with the boundry you ask the LL to sell his share of the land strip on your side of the fence; paymemt is your share of the land on his side Or the LL to sell his total share to the new buyer Or leave it as is and let the buyer sort it out.

LL knows you and the Renter but the LL has no control over who buys your jointly shared garden from you.

Remember your buyer can decide they get to use 100% of the total garden, pull the Renter's fence out, put in their own fence locking the Renter out, batter the Renter on the doorstep when they come to complain and do the same to the LL when the LL points out its shared. Then its the LL having to pay to sort that out.

You need to speak to an estate agent to get estimated prices for the options and ask in their experience what happened in similar circumstance plus a solicitor for the extra costs which could crop up.

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