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Original poster

Family property nightmare

76 replies

lookslikeabombhitit · 20/06/2023 00:09

Any property advice please? It's long and complicated I'm afraid but don't want to give too many details as I think I'd be easily identified! We're trying to access free legal support through clinics but are just trying to assess what to do in the meantime...

DH had a house signed over to him 20 years ago by grandparents. He is the only person on the deeds. There is no mortgage on the property and no conditions attached to the deeds that we have accessed on the land registry. We don't live in the house. Family do. No financial benefit is taken from the house by DH. A relative (occupant) now wants to be on the deeds and has produced a TR1 for DH to sign...

My question is- does being the sole person named on the deeds mean you are the owner? Are there any documents (i.e. a will or anything like conditions/terms written by a solicitor) that would supersede the deeds and force DH to sign it over? There is no trust set up about the house to our knowledge- is there a way to find out if there is one? We haven't seen the grandparents will- if the grandparent said in their will they wanted the house to be signed over to relative would that be enforceable as they're not on the deeds?

We're not trying to be grabby! This is a really horrible situation to be in as there's no "benefit" for us in any of the scenarios we can think of, it's created a massive family drama and has the very real potential of us being left destitute if DH signs this bloody house over to keep the peace as we lose the only thing keeping us afloat at the moment (UC- house currently eligible for disregard as a capital asset due to occupants, if he signs it over it'll be seen as deprivation of assets/capital).

OP posts:
rileynexttime · 20/06/2023 16:57

As mentioned by another poster it would be wise to consider this service

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/property-alert

and I think hold tight , onus is on them to engage legal advice supporting their claim. If they do you could think about advice of your own.

Property Alert

Sign up to HM Land Registry's free Property Alert service to help protect your property from fraud.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/property-alert

EggInANest · 20/06/2023 17:02

Well, you now have a good answer OP: It isn't possible to transfer ownership or part ownership to anyone else because there will be £XXK CGT to pay.

However, Is she in a position to offer to pay this?

I assume that your MIL is worried that once her mother dies she will have nowhere to live.

She can't make your DH sign. If any solicitor's letter arrives giving any kind of evidence of any rights then you can seek your on legal advice.

Meanwhile just do nothing. "The Capital Gains Tax makes it impossible, it was passed on to me by Grandfather with Grandmother's full agreement years ago, and that is the way it will stay. It was my childhood home for 22 years, and I am happy that you have been able to live there with granny and Xy and Z all these years" should be your DH's mantra.

Does he visit his grandmother?

Original poster
lookslikeabombhitit · 20/06/2023 17:22

Thanks everyone. We've set an alert up now.

He's never charged rent etc because it's not what either grandparent would want. Relative wants him to sign over the whole house. They moved back in 20 years ISH ago and replaced kitchen/bathroom/boiler/ DG with the proceeds of their previous house sale. The majority of that house sale went on debt clearance. Their argument seems to be they have improved the house 20 years ago therefore they own it. They are now using grandparent as a weapon to try and guilt/manipulate DH into signing it over.

It's a nightmare.

OP posts:
VanCleefArpels · 20/06/2023 17:25

Do Nothing
Sign nothing
I wouldn’t even bother with legal advice at this stage
If someone else thinks they have a right of ownership (other than by your DH’s gift) let them assert that through a solicitor. If they want to change the status quo then let them prove why that should happen.

And I trust you and DH both have valid wills?!

rileynexttime · 20/06/2023 17:28

It must be horrible for you but just carry on and don't forget, it's a nightmare that they've created. Try not to let it stuck you in.

mirages08 · 20/06/2023 17:36

Do not sign this

Put an alert on the address on the land registry website, which will laertes you to any dodgy activity

DazeOff · 20/06/2023 18:33

Sounds to me like grandparents saw this coming and wanted to prevent it the best way they could.

Original poster
lookslikeabombhitit · 20/06/2023 19:40

God. No. We don't have wills. Suppose we'll have to sort those out now all this is booting off.

Unfortunately remaining grandparent has "changed mind" or is being coerced into stating that intention all along was for relative to have house. There's nothing to back this up at all. Relative is basically creating problems where there have been none to manipulate the house into their possession using grandparent whilst they can. It's horrible.

OP posts:
MrsSquirrel · 20/06/2023 21:43

Relative is basically creating problems where there have been none to manipulate the house into their possession using grandparent whilst they can.

Sounds like financial abuse. You're right, it's horrible.

RandomMess · 20/06/2023 21:59

The relative that has "improved" the house has lived rent and mortgage free all that time so they can jog on.

It sounds like grandparents back in the day knew EXACTLY what this relative was like, utterly financially irresponsible and that is why it was transferred to your DH.

They all have somewhere to live rent free unlike you so they can jog on.

I suggest when remaining grandparent dies you look at evicting them tbh.

Babyroobs · 20/06/2023 22:05

Do you realize that if the remaining grandparent owned the house then if they need care to be paid for then there is no limit in time that local authorities can go back to see if assets/ property was given away ?? Why did they sign it away like that ?

EggInANest · 20/06/2023 23:32

Babyroobs · 20/06/2023 22:05

Do you realize that if the remaining grandparent owned the house then if they need care to be paid for then there is no limit in time that local authorities can go back to see if assets/ property was given away ?? Why did they sign it away like that ?

It is not Deprivation of Assets if the asset was given away when there was no knowledge of a specific reason to need care, and it was not given away in order to avoid paying for care.

This is what Age UK say:

“When your council is deciding whether getting rid of property and money has been a deliberate deprivation of assets, they will consider two things:

  1. You must have known at the time you got rid of your property or money that you needed or may need care and support
  2. Avoiding paying for care must have been a significant reason for giving away your home or reducing your savings.”
https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/care/paying-for-care/paying-for-a-care-home/deprivation-of-assets/

It was given to the OP’s DH 20 years ago and his grandmother is still not needing a care home.

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/care/paying-for-care/paying-for-a-care-home/deprivation-of-assets/

EggInANest · 20/06/2023 23:35

OP: on this thread you have been given links to the relevant info on Capital Gains Tax that show that your DH would have to pay CGT on transfer. He needs to explain this to his grandmother.

Is he keeping in contact with his grandmother?

Or…. Had he left all her care to his mother?

NumberTheory · 21/06/2023 13:53

OP if you DH owns a property you don't live in, how do qualify for UC? It should be counted as an asset.

katmarie · 21/06/2023 14:23

Do you have home insurance, on either property? If you do, check your policy carefully, you may well have legal cover which you could use to get some proper legal advice on all this. If you don't have insurance on the other house, I would recommend you set it up soon. No telling what a disgruntled family member might do to your property if this all kicks off.

MooMooSharoo · 21/06/2023 17:20

Unfortunately remaining grandparent has "changed mind" or is being coerced into stating that intention all along was for relative to have house.

Well if that were really the case your DH would have been told at the time and/or the house would have been put in to their name at that time.

I can't see how they'd get any joy by taking legal advice on it.

Your DH clearly doesn't want to boot out his grandmother, but what is the plan for when she's no longer around? It seems crazy that you're living off UC and paying rent, while your DH owns a property you should be able to live in or sell for your own use.

Would DH consider otherwise letting his Mum live there rent free after DGM has died?

Do you have to declare the property as part of your UC claim? Just wondering how they look on this as you have an asset of significant value, but aren't generating any income from it.

Babyroobs · 21/06/2023 20:11

NumberTheory · 21/06/2023 13:53

OP if you DH owns a property you don't live in, how do qualify for UC? It should be counted as an asset.

It can be disregarded if occupied by someone over pension credit age apparently. Crazy rules surely just giving older people more incentive to sign their homes away !

NumberTheory · 21/06/2023 21:14

@Babyroobs Thanks, I didn't know that. Good that it doesn't threaten their current income.

MooMooSharoo · 22/06/2023 11:24

Thanks @Babyroobs that answered the final point on my query too.

Something for OP's DH to think about though when his grandmother is no longer living there if his Mum doesn't meet the requirement.

AliceOlive · 22/06/2023 11:40

MIL could mortgage, sell or lose the house if it’s signed over to her.

Seems like DH’s grandfather put this house in your DH’s name to protect his grandmother from potentially becoming homeless.

SomePeopleAreNice · 22/06/2023 20:38

Ok, I'm playing devils advocate here a bit

Might the grandparents have signed the house to the OPs husband to avoid the house going to a husband of the OPs MIL? It might it be because of substance abuse that has now stopped.

I'm not sure it's that surprising that the MIL is feeling vulnerable - if they've put money into the house then maybe they did so with the belief they would be inheriting the house at some point. If the MIL has lived with the grandparent for so long and the grandparent wants them to have a share of the house I don't get that it's a underhand or evil,as posters are making out.

The OP hasn't mentioned the possibility of giving the MIL any rights to live in the house so appears to want her removed from the house as soon as the grandparent dies. It does seem harsh depending on just how badly the MIL has behaved in the past.

The OP mentions her husband doing "what the grandparents" wanted ( not charging rent) but then is not going to do what the grandparent wants by giving some security to the MIL.

I wonder if there is a half way house way of resolving this that would provide some security to the MIL and some peace of mind to the grandparent.

Usually, on Mumsnet, sympathy always lies with the people ( usually women) who step up and care for elderly people.

Anyway, there is obviously a massive amount of history to this and I suspect it's far more nuanced that it seems.

One thing that's a bit annoying is that UC has effectively been paying for the MIL and grandparent to live rent free. You would think that people who own houses should be required to get rent if they are able rather than claiming UC

Original poster
lookslikeabombhitit · 23/06/2023 00:15

NumberTheory · 21/06/2023 13:53

OP if you DH owns a property you don't live in, how do qualify for UC? It should be counted as an asset.

It's disregarded as an asset because one relative is disabled and claiming relevant benefits. The fact grandparent is over state pension age doesn't count here as UC does not class grandparent as a close relative.... It's all above board/ by the regulations- we're not gaming the system.

OP posts:
SomePeopleAreNice · 23/06/2023 00:24

Is the disabled relative one of the ones that will be made homeless when the grandparent dies? Are you sure the grandparent hasnt changed their mind for their sake!
I know the grandparent can't do anything as they have already given the house to your husband but maybe they are really upset that the people they've lived with for 20 years will be made homeless.

Original poster
lookslikeabombhitit · 23/06/2023 00:29

SomePeopleAreNice · 22/06/2023 20:38

Ok, I'm playing devils advocate here a bit

Might the grandparents have signed the house to the OPs husband to avoid the house going to a husband of the OPs MIL? It might it be because of substance abuse that has now stopped.

I'm not sure it's that surprising that the MIL is feeling vulnerable - if they've put money into the house then maybe they did so with the belief they would be inheriting the house at some point. If the MIL has lived with the grandparent for so long and the grandparent wants them to have a share of the house I don't get that it's a underhand or evil,as posters are making out.

The OP hasn't mentioned the possibility of giving the MIL any rights to live in the house so appears to want her removed from the house as soon as the grandparent dies. It does seem harsh depending on just how badly the MIL has behaved in the past.

The OP mentions her husband doing "what the grandparents" wanted ( not charging rent) but then is not going to do what the grandparent wants by giving some security to the MIL.

I wonder if there is a half way house way of resolving this that would provide some security to the MIL and some peace of mind to the grandparent.

Usually, on Mumsnet, sympathy always lies with the people ( usually women) who step up and care for elderly people.

Anyway, there is obviously a massive amount of history to this and I suspect it's far more nuanced that it seems.

One thing that's a bit annoying is that UC has effectively been paying for the MIL and grandparent to live rent free. You would think that people who own houses should be required to get rent if they are able rather than claiming UC

I'm not entirely sure where you've got anything about substance abuse/ mil's husband. It's a weird thing to speculate out of nowhere...

MIL was categorically told not to spend her money on the house by grandparents repeatedly. She chose to regardless rather than saving her money as she wanted a different aesthetic in the house. If she'd have been renting for the same period of time the improvements she made back then would be near worthless under wear and tear guidance. She isn't a carer for grandparent. Grandparent is able to care for themselves.

I'm also not entirely sure where you're getting that I want her out of the house from. I don't, nor does DH. We just don't want her absolutely fucking over our finances because she's stamping her feet and has made up a story. Like I said in an earlier post, I wish the sodding thing would burn down with no casualties as at least then it's sorted- no one gets it. 🤷🏼‍♀️

UC aren't paying mil/grandparent to live rent free. It is keeping my family from bankruptcy and food in the kids bellies- sorry it annoys you. 🤷🏼‍♀️

OP posts:
SomePeopleAreNice · 23/06/2023 00:52

I'm not entirely sure where you've got anything about substance abuse/ mil's husband. It's a weird thing to speculate out of nowhere

It was just speculation but it's odd that the grandparents didn't leave the house to their daughter, and I was wandering what the reason was. It's odd that they didn't leave the house to the daughter but were then ok for her to live in the house for 20 years.

What does you husband plan to do with the house once his grandparent dies? Evicting his Mum and a disabled relative would be difficult even with a lot of bad feeling.