Lasting power of attorney issues. Attorney disagreeing with preferences.

[fortheloveofgodmary]

What happens if an attorney to be disagrees with the donor's preferences. The attorneys was originally completely against seeing a solicitor because of the cost.. The LPAs were completed and sent off but since then the donor has changed their mind on several things. Now another sibling has been added(me) and one of them is saying a solicitor needs to be consulted because of the donor's preferences and possibly for the solicitor to be the attorney. They have not given a reason for this when asked and just say a solicitor needs to be seen. They are saying only them and the donor should see the solicitor and not the other two attorneys. It's all about the preferences but they won't explain what the issue is and have become quite unpleasant about it all. They are saying this is taking too much of their time and I'm concerned how they would manage to be an attorney if they are struggling to find time to discuss this between the four of us.
A solicitor has been approached and gave some advice but they only offer a complete advice, prep, registering the LPA service, they don't do just advice. I don't know if that's a common thing. The solicitor said straight off that this could be done without using a solicitor. The solicitor gave advice on the instructions and preferences section and clarified a few things and that was all that was needed so we thought. Now the other attorney is not happy and I'm not sure where we go from here. It's very clear now that this would not be a team thing. Any advice would be much appreciated.

No idea where the money is coming from. They simultaneously demand the donor. spends and saves 🤷🏼‍♀️

@prh47bridge thank you.

I really do not like the sound of attorney 1.

Me neither and I won't be able to work with them on this now. They were very personal and bullying and insulting towards me.

The donor is too fearful of what 1 and 2 will say if they don't appoint them. I've said that's coercive. The donor is being coerced to make choices based on how people will react. The donor has been told their very basic personal requests are too much to ask for eg a haircut every 2 months.
Now there's a meeting between them planned for 2 weeks to discuss. Then we'd need to coordinate 5 people getting together to do the forms. It's going to be winter at this rate before things are sorted.
Bloody nightmare.

“The donor has been told their very basic personal requests are too much to ask for eg a haircut every 2 months.”

Crikey.

I hope the donor knows that, as long as they have capacity, they can continue choosing how to spend their money.

If there is anything like a mobile hairdresser nearby, you could set up a long term booking every other month?

also, this seems to be day to day spend which everyone seems to want you to do!

My DH is one of four siblings and only one of his sisters has POA for his parents. They have their spouse and his sister as the attorneys, with DH as the backup attorney.

There’s no reason why all the siblings need to be attorneys, too many cooks, etc.

Remember not to make the financial LPA too complicated - otherwise rhe banknwill not accept it and simply shut everything down if donor looses capacity. For example my MILs bank queried the LPA that said attorneys can act separately in everything except the sale of my house where they must act jointly. They would not have entertained any rules about acting differently over certain amounts etc.

But yeah having read all this I would not want 1 as an attorney... denying haircuts... that's horrible and definately not what you need in your old age! They are just trying to protect their own inheritance at the expense of the living of life by the donor. That is elder abuse.

There was a thread on here a year or so ago about a series of siblings involved in a similar situation... they however expected the carer to carry on full time care with no access to even small change cash without begging them! It all blew up in the end!

There's nothing complicated in the finance one at all. There's no money, stocks, shares, second home or anything to make it complicated, just the one small house and a few hundred in the bank. There are no instructions either, just pregerences.

I'm worried about what this will all look like in practise and yes, I'm worried about abuse. To say the won't get a choice about what home they go in to if one is needed and to say that asking for things like a regular haircut is unrealistic is appalling. It's like they's just be dumped in a home ams visited once in a while. If I'm unable to provide care due ti being ill or incapacitated due to an accident and in hospital I have no doubts that 1 and 2 will kick up a huge fuss and say they can't help and that I will have to sort something out. That has happened in the past when the donor broke their shoulder. 2 said they couldn't possibly take the donor to a&e and told the donor to get a taxi. This is an octogenarian who walks with a frame and can't leave the house alone. Then 2 couldn't possibly cook a quick meal one night when I couldn't. I was told to figure it out because they work and don't have time. At that point I was usually there 10 hours a day with a baby in tow but 2 wouldn't help out. So no, I don't feel confident they would step up. The donor is saying they would HAVE to do stuff but I doubt they would.

For now nothing is happening until the donor has seen 1 which might or might not be in 2 weeks. It depends on their spouse so no guarantee at all. I'm not sure why this needs more discussion after all these months and I've explained to the donor that this is delaying things by months but that is their choice and I have to respect that.

The donor has said that they cant afford a solicitor and won't be consulting one so that's that.

I think the donor is worrying about stuff that's already happened, from the sound of it.
The other two are being right pains in the arse, and donor is nuts if they think that makes it a GOOD idea to give them LPA!
As attorney the appropriate attitude is "yes, donor" not "no you can't have your hair cut" FFS.

Yes, it's very clear that none of the others like me. That's ok, I don't like them either but it doesn't affect how I am with the donor. I'll be glad to get it all sorted because I'm worrying about it all the time. It's obvious that 1 and 2 won't communicate with me at all over anything so how on earth will that work when I'm providing the care. My communications to them over this have been ignored. The donor's final years are going to be hell at this rate if they lose capacity. I think the donor would appoint me and me only but is scared of the fall out. Or if they don't appoint 1 then 2 will refuse and there'll be fall out. Everything is based on how 1 and 2 will react and that's not right. It should be based on what is best for the donor.

I think a decision has been reached after more tears and fretting. I'm waiting to hear back from the donor about it.

Ok, well, the donor has heard from 2 and both 1 and 2 refuse to be attorneys with me and want a solicitor as an attorney with them instead of me. I'm not sure how that would work.
I've implored the donor to get the will sorted because 4 executors who don't talk to each other or 3 who refuse to talk to 1 won't work very well will it?

But are there preferences written into thenLPOA itself?
this is why putting too much info into the LPOA is not a good idea - we read up on this before we wrote ours

it is better , in most normal cases, to only state the fundamentals in the LPOA, and then state in it something like “ the attorneys should implement my “expression of wishes” whenever and wherever possible.

an expression of wishes isn’t a legal document that needs witness signatures. It is just what it says on the tin. Those we did sign and witness ours just to be sure. In that we put a whole pile of stuff about what care assistance and preferences we wanted, funeral stuff etc …it’s quite long and covers very small detials.

because it isn’t a legal doc as such it can be updated whenever and wherever , I’ve updated mine twice in last 15 years and have then signed and dated it, and got that witnessed.

You don’t need a solicitor to manage LPOA at all. We wrote ours and got it registered without a solicitor, I then contacted the office of guardian (or whatever it’s called) on my divorce myself to say my ex was no longer attorney and would default to my replacement attorneys. (LPOA unlike wills do not need changing on divorce if there are replacement attorneys before anyone asks) . You can, I think, just complete something or do something direct to cancel an existing LPOA direct with office of guardianship. And then again start over and do that direct
youdo not need a solicitor for any of that. Attorney is talking bollocks UNLESS the individual has lost mental competency. And you certainly don’t need one of attorneys to be solicitor. Just nope.

you may choose to use a solicitor to handle the changes- frankly I think LPOA ar e one of most complicated things to DIY due to all the sodding signatures 🙄, far more difficult than petitioning for a divorce for instance 🤣🤣. But, it doesn’t have to involve a solicitor with a bit of persistence from the individual whose LPOA it is,

Ok, sorry I’m reading this now after posting.
this is way more complicated.
who is next of kin? Are all the attorneys the donor wants related (eg sons and daughters)
if you or all others are not related to donor, than having a solicitor as attorney is frankly the best solution for donor. I’d be very concerned about a non relative being an attorney who is not legal qualified themselves.
this Is ultimately the donors decision, not yours. You actually sound a bit too invested in trying to sort this out. They need to talk to all the potential attorneys and sort this out themselves. Not your role, it will just piss all other potential attorneys off more. Yes they can refuse to work with you as joint attorneys- there’s nothing that you or person whose LPOA it is can do. If that person is insistent on you being attorney ahead of others, then yes you should not act alone and they’d be idiots to do that , a second attorney who is solicitor is wisest approach for them
but, As I say this is not your business, you could be perceived as unduly influencing them.

@Whiteroomjoy thank you but it's been complicated by 1 and 2 refusing to work with me. So 1 and 2 are saying a solicitor needs to be an attorney because I do all the day to day finances and care and would not have any access to money to pay for anything. 1 and 2 are never available and I would have to approach them every time I needed money to pay a bill for the donor or do their shopping or buy Christmas gifts or anything. They are saying that I would need to speak to the solicitor each time I needed money to pay bills.

@Whiteroomjoy this is all part of my caring role for the donor. 1 and 2 don't have time to do this. The donor is totally stressed out by it and doesn't know how to resolve it all and is looking to me to do all the contacting solicitors, research and asking for advice. All the potential attorneys are siblings. It's pissing me off now because I'm trying to help as best I can and am the only person who will do it yet 1 and 2 don't think I should have POA. I'm getting to the point of refusing to have anything more to do with it because it's taking up all my spare time and despite trying to sort this for weeks it's not progressing anywhere except round and round in circles.

By any chance, are you female and 1 & 2 male?!

@SheilaFentiman yes but 1 is male and 2 female.

If the donor has capacity, even if the POA is filed, she can still continue to instruct her bank etc.

If it reaches the point where she doesn’t and you have to request money from the others for everything, I would walk away at that point from arranging things. They can book things in if they don’t want you to have the power.

I've been through being an attorney, with the health one I think it's useful to discuss as a group different scenarios, it is a difficult scenario but but you need to think what you would want for your self

The bank have said I need POA to continue doing what I do now.
The GP has a letter from the donor to say they have permission to discuss anything relating to their health with me.
The mortgage company have me as an authorised person.

If I step away no-one else will do what I do. They have made it very clear they are too busy. I feel like I'm good enough to do everything that POA would give me the authority to do but I'm not trusted by 1 and 2 to do that officially

None of the solicitors locally take on professional attorney work so that's that option out of the window.

@fortheloveofgodmary You need to step back! Why are you in this position? 10 hours a day!!! Tell donor to spend money on paid help. I do not see how this dilemma is solely yours?