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Legal matters

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Taking children abroad to visit family

34 replies

Homeforkids · 01/04/2023 17:38

Hi everyone!
I am looking at taking my 2 children (10 and 12) abroad to see my side of the family on the other side of the world - so a long trip. They haven't seen them for about 5 years. Kids are excited to go and will see grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins etc. Grandparents are now too old to travel to the UK. I would like the trip to be about 4 weeks due to how far it is and the expense! I am the father and the children live with their mother. We are divorced. There are no court orders in place for contact/visits - we just usually agree between us when the children visit me.

So I have a couple of issues I am hoping people can help me with.

  • Some of the time would be in school time - I would expect to have to take the kids out of school for 8 days either side of the holidays. This exceeds the time of 5 days allowed before a fine is issued. I have just started making queries with the school. I know they may authorise leave for exceptional circumstances. I know this isn't that (funeral, wedding etc.) but it has been years since they have seen this side of the family and it would probably be several years before they see them again. I thought now would be a good time before the children get into the later years of secondary school and being absent has more of an impact. Would it even be a possibility of the school approving for this type of trip?
  • Although we usually mutually agree visits, I have concerns that my ex may say it's ok for them to go but then change her mind at the last minute and not allow them to go. I have had issues with her in the past. Due to the type and expense of the trip I would not want the worry of that potentially happening. It is worth applying for a court order (someone told me it's called 'specific issue') to give the certainty that she can't prevent me from taking them? If I was to do something like that, would she be informed? I only want it for a safety net and don't want to use (or her to know) unless it was needed. What is the process and cost?
  • If I get approval from the court, would that strengthen the case for school approval?

Any comments welcome. Thanks

OP posts:
PotteringAlonggotkickedoutandhadtoreregister · 01/04/2023 17:42

I wouldn’t let my children go abroad without me for 4 weeks.

it would also depend on the country you want to take them to. If it’s not signed up to The Hague convention then they wouldn’t be going for any time at all.

Ponderingwindow · 01/04/2023 17:46

Her reaction is likely going to be dependent on the legal situation of the country in question. If it isn’t a Hague convention country, she might seek a prohibited steps order to prevent the trip.

is there some particular reason you can’t complete the trip during school holidays?

Maxiedog123 · 01/04/2023 17:47

Four weeks is a very long time for a 10 year old to be away from the parent they usually live with. While I understand the airfares are expensive I still think I'd go for shorter, and then also less problems with the school.

Maxiedog123 · 01/04/2023 17:52

I also would not agree to my children going if it were to a country not part of the Hague convention. Hopefully this isn't an issue of the country is a member.

Gladiaterf · 01/04/2023 17:59

4 weeks is far too long for them to be away from their mother. I wouldn't agree to it.

10 days - 2 weeks max. And must be in school holidays.

B0g · 01/04/2023 18:07

A month is a very long time to remove the kids from their parent. They’re only on ‘visiting’ terms with you?

trevthecat · 01/04/2023 18:10

4 weeks is way too long. What country would you be taking them too? Because that would also change how I felt about my kids being without me

aslkde · 01/04/2023 18:15

Which country? This is critical

MadeForThis · 01/04/2023 18:37

2 weeks is more than enough. Missing family, friends and school here.

MrsBunnyEars · 01/04/2023 18:43

Why can’t you go in the summer holidays so they don’t miss school?

No way would I allow this, and I’d be shocked if a court ordered a child to miss school.

Clymene · 01/04/2023 18:46

Over my dead body would you bed taking my kids away for a month if they were mine.

You will not get the holiday authorised. You will have to pay your fine and hers if she allows it.

BornBlonde · 01/04/2023 18:58

4 weeks is very long! Too long in my opinion to be away from a parent.

I think you need to approach your ex based on it being 2 weeks in school holidays

It doesn't seem in the best interests of the children to be away from the Mum or miss school that long

prh47bridge · 01/04/2023 18:58

Ignoring those treating this as AIBU and answering your questions...

  • I would be very surprised if the school approved the trip, so you and your ex could be facing substantial fines or worse if you go ahead with this plan.
  • A specific issue order would indeed give you certainty.
  • Yes, she would be informed if you applied for an order. You cannot get an order like this without her knowledge.
  • To get an SIO, you must first attend a meeting about mediation (a Mediation Information and Assessment Meeting). If you still need to go to court after that, you complete form C100 or apply online. It costs £232.
  • I would be very surprised if getting an SIO made any difference to the school's attitude. The SIO resolves a disagreement between yourself and your ex. It does not affect the school at all.
Homeforkids · 01/04/2023 22:09

Thanks prh47bridge. I'm new here and was simply after some information. I am a bit shocked at the unhelpful comments. I appreciate their personal situation probably differs to mine to make them post like that. Parents are equal - well in my case anyway. Kids aren't mine, they are ours.

Obviously my preference is that we can agree amicably. I am only making queries if that unfortunately isn't possible.

The country in question is Australia - so part of The Hague Convention.
I can only assume the comments from people saying it should only be two weeks probably haven't done long haul travel. I have done this trip a few times. Once I did it in two weeks myself and was basically exhausted for the whole trip. Certainly something you wouldn't do with kids in the same way. Hence the time so they can actually recover and enjoy it.

The idea is the extended family will come together for this one Christmas. It usually doesn't happen, so this is a big one off. If we went another time then it won't be possible to see all the family as holidays don't match to holidays in the UK. Even though it isn't required I will be setting time aside for school work to continue.

I view this as a very special one off trip that the children will always remember.

I have always been very flexible and let my ex have first option for her holidays, events etc. This will be the only thing I ever ask for. It actually isn't 4 full weeks as I want to allow a few days recovery back with Mum before heading back to school.

One more question as it doesn't seem clear online - It seems the fine was £60 per parent, per child, per day away in the past? But information now just says £60 per child for each parent. Nothing about days? Maybe someone can confirm?

Please, I am here for information to help me come up with the best solution moving forward. Nothing more.

OP posts:
Clymene · 01/04/2023 22:20

You've come to a female dominated forum, asking for how you legally force your ex wife to let you take her children away for a month and you're surprised that people are being 'unhelpful'? Really?

And I'm guessing from what you've said that you've spoken to your children about the trip but told them they shouldn't tell their mum? That's really shitty parenting.

Homeforkids · 01/04/2023 22:49

Sorry but you’ve guessed wrong. I don’t know what your situation is to make you comment like that. But please, don’t try and guess mine.
I would never ask my kids to do what you suggested. If there is anything I can’t stand it’s parents slagging off the other parent to children. No need to go calling me a sh@&tty parent for a situation you ‘guess’.
Maybe I didn’t make clear is my ex isn’t refusing. My concern is while she agrees now, she could change her mind later. Apart from a trip being booked the kids would be devastated after the excitement and expectation. If I have to be blunt, this is about the kids. Nothing else.

OP posts:
SaveMeFromMyBoobs · 01/04/2023 22:50

Homeforkids · 01/04/2023 22:09

Thanks prh47bridge. I'm new here and was simply after some information. I am a bit shocked at the unhelpful comments. I appreciate their personal situation probably differs to mine to make them post like that. Parents are equal - well in my case anyway. Kids aren't mine, they are ours.

Obviously my preference is that we can agree amicably. I am only making queries if that unfortunately isn't possible.

The country in question is Australia - so part of The Hague Convention.
I can only assume the comments from people saying it should only be two weeks probably haven't done long haul travel. I have done this trip a few times. Once I did it in two weeks myself and was basically exhausted for the whole trip. Certainly something you wouldn't do with kids in the same way. Hence the time so they can actually recover and enjoy it.

The idea is the extended family will come together for this one Christmas. It usually doesn't happen, so this is a big one off. If we went another time then it won't be possible to see all the family as holidays don't match to holidays in the UK. Even though it isn't required I will be setting time aside for school work to continue.

I view this as a very special one off trip that the children will always remember.

I have always been very flexible and let my ex have first option for her holidays, events etc. This will be the only thing I ever ask for. It actually isn't 4 full weeks as I want to allow a few days recovery back with Mum before heading back to school.

One more question as it doesn't seem clear online - It seems the fine was £60 per parent, per child, per day away in the past? But information now just says £60 per child for each parent. Nothing about days? Maybe someone can confirm?

Please, I am here for information to help me come up with the best solution moving forward. Nothing more.

I wouldn't agree to this if I was your ex. Your kids live primarily with your ex, and you want to take them away for a whole month over Christmas AND New Year? How is that the best thing for those kids? Don't you think they want to see their mum and primary caregiver at Christmas and New Year? Wouldn't you be distraught not to see your kids at all for not only the holiday season but weeks each side too?

This is what you want not whats best for the kids.

Clymene · 01/04/2023 22:56

Kids are excited to go

I have concerns that my ex may say it's ok for them to go but then change her mind at the last minute and not allow them to go. I have had issues with her in the past.

Weird way of phrasing it if you've already asked her and she's given you her blessing. She's happy for you to take her children away for a month? Over Christmas?

And don't give me 'about the kids' bullshit. Plenty of people travel to Australia for two or three weeks. There is no need to go for four except that's what you want. You don't need a month to recover from the time difference.

A month is a really long time to take children away from their mum who they live with.

Simonjt · 01/04/2023 23:06

Schools do grant extended leave for children who have family abroad, it isn’t at all unusual, I know a lot of people who do it, including us. We’ve never had an issue with exceptional circumstances being granted.

Fines are per holiday period, not per day, so if a fine is issued you just need to pay a fixed fee per child, one person can pay the fine for all adults, the money doesn’t have to come from esch individuals bank account etc.

Pythonesque · 01/04/2023 23:26

We're Australian and I agree with you on the 4 weeks bit. (I wondered straight away from your first post if you were talking about Australia or NZ) It really does take a good week to get over the travelling and the jet lag in each direction. 3 weeks is my absolute minimum and I think the only time my husband's gone back for less than that was when it was an add on to a conference trip.

The first time my children and I went back without their father, they were 4 and 7, and we went for 7 weeks IIRC. We didn't have to worry about school as they were in independents who just said, great idea make the most of it. It was over Christmas, Dad's 70th birthday and their 40th wedding anniversary, sounds not dissimilar to what your family has planned. The next trip their father took them and I think they were 7 and 9; I think that was about a month (or more) in the summer holidays. We had a 4 week whole family trip over Christmas just before covid hit, prompted by an ill grandparent; possibly missing a few days of school but squeezed in as the eldest was in 6th form by then.

Cost is a very big factor in all of this. Prices during covid (when you could even get flights) became astronomical, and although they've come down they remain much higher than previously. I think you are right to plan to make the most of this trip and likely another might have to wait till they've finished school. And for those who say, go in the UK summer, well depending on where you're going that means you miss summer here for cold and wet and miserable winter weather there. Not always ideal.

10 and 12 is old enough to potentially cope with going back to school quite quickly despite jet lag. The transition coming to the UK is often easier for some reason, and also coming back to cold weather doesn't sap your energy the way the other direction can do if you hit a heat wave! I'm also remembering 3 trips in the opposite direction in my childhood to visit my granny and other relatives.

Obviously the complexities of being divorced are a whole extra layer to sort out. If their mother agrees then I would wonder if putting all arrangements and agreement in writing at the time of agreement, would be the way to approach it?

School fines - I'd be inclined to look carefully at potential flight dates and where the shoulder fares are slightly lower than the full Christmas peak. You'll likely pay less in potential school fines than if you pay maximum fares I suspect. And hopefully if this is thoughtfully organised your school will be tolerant at the least; some have their hands tied over fines but as I say, it may be overall cost neutral or better to optimise the trip dates.

McKenzieFriend001 · 01/04/2023 23:31

If mum decides to raise a PSO preventing you from taking the children, and this ends up in court, court will rule in mum's favour specifically because it is not within the remit of the court to allow for holidays during term time.

This happened as recently as Christmas 2022 for a friend of mine, both children in primary, judge said no.

I would reconsider your plans, and - if you are as conciliatory as you purport to be with mum - offer to take her with you.

Fooksticks · 01/04/2023 23:41

As someone who has done the Aus/UK trip too many times, I understand the length of stay you want for it to be a good trip.

You could shorten it, I've done it in under 2 weeks and it was ok. I never left the house though, everyone came to see me.

The school will be an issue. We never got authorised holidays, but we didn't get a fine. Will their school fine?

And pp mentioning bringing your ex. Would she consider it for say 2 weeks, then you could stay longer with DC.

Dh is Irish, we now live in Aus. If we were to split up I'd never stop him from taking our DC to visit his family. Hope your exW can be reasonable.

NBLarsen · 01/04/2023 23:57

I don't know the answers to your legal questions but wanted to say I think it's perfectly fine for 10 and 12 year old to spend a month away from one parent, especially when they are in the care of the other parent and visiting their family! Surprised at the anti-father responses here. Presumably your kids spend a decent amount of time with you and are comfortable in your care.

Your first step really needs to be a conversation with their mother, and then with the school.

I have a nephew currently away with his father on a very similar trip to what you've described, they are actually away for six weeks. With the school's permission he is completing a mix of self-study with online resources and submitting homework. That might be an option for you to put to the school.

Homeforkids · 02/04/2023 09:07

Thanks everyone (almost) for the information. That is the type of information I was looking for, that come from people that have been there and done it. I am thinking about all options carefully and hearing from what people have done in the past helps. It is very interesting hearing from people with family far away.

So people understand - the kids visit me whenever possible, so they are frequently with me. They are very comfortable in my care and always excited to see me. We enjoy our times together. Lot's of hugs and love! So no issues there. There can be goodbye tears if they know it may be longer until I see them next time.

We are fortunate with video calling etc. these days that I will ensure they will still be in contact with their Mum regularly while away. My parents were divorced (no video calls back then) and I wasn't keen on my father visits, so have actively made the children feel safe and visits enjoyable over the years so they don't have any of the issues I had.

I will chat with school more and get their feedback. It would make everything easier if they are on board.

Just to reply for comments....

Simonjt - Interesting that yourself and others you know have got exceptional circumstances approval. Sounds like you have done this several times to visit family and not had any issues? This isn't purely a holiday (I know some people will probably not agree) but my family is large and dotted all over a large continent. I am not sure I even recall a time everyone being together like this in the past. So this is the only time we can get to see all family members. If I changed to a different time, seeing all the family just won't be possible. I see schools seem to list weddings etc. as allowed circumstances. The size of this could be compared to a wedding, just missing a bride and groom! ;)

Pythonesque - Thank you for your input and advice - your situation sounds similar. I think 3 weeks is the minimum. I looked at 3, but calendar dates don't really work out for that. You end up travelling in the wrong time of the school week so it's either straight back to school or lost days until starting the following week. A fine balance of getting the most days of trip to avoid jetlag and the least days from school at the same time. Let's not forget about the lost days in the travel itself. I welcome your comments about heading away from UK summer to winter over there. We will be south, so possibly the wettest and coldest time of the year. The local kids (the cousins) will all be in school. We would basically travel to the other side of the world to be stuck indoors. Ok, I would get to see some of my family which is always lovely but it makes it pretty dull for the kids. I know they would soon become bored. It would be like going to the south of France or Italy in December instead of July. You are correct in saying that this could be the last chance until they finish school now. Absolutely agree with you on jetlag. It is tough, and very much so going there compared to coming back. Maybe because the trip over is '2-3 days' going by the calendar that direction. I would love to get agreement in writing, and this is something I will aim for.

McKenzieFriend001 - This is a worry. Was your friend going to visit immediate family or was it more of a holiday? If it was a family visit, were they able to see all the family regardless of the time they went? That's very sad what happened to your friend. This I why I think need something in writing.

Fooksticks - I wish we could do in two weeks like you managed but we won't be just staying at home like you were able. It will be a busy time while there. The kids already have a list of places and stuff they want to do. I did two weeks (and I was much younger too) and it was totally exhausting even though it was a quieter trip. I said I would never do again. I thought if you didn't get approval from school, they would fine. So it's interesting to hear what happened to yourself and not being fined?

NBLarsen - Thanks for your kind words. I can't help but think if I was a mum doing the same thing I would get these comments? But the majority are helpful. As I mention above, kids are very happy in my care. I have planned to include school work and suggested this to the school. I did ask if they could set some work but they said it's something they don't do. But we already have a good online learning tool we have used for extra studies that we can use anywhere anytime. And of course the ideal is both mum and school are on board. People sharing their experiences and information can only help to achieve this.

OP posts:
Puppalicious · 02/04/2023 09:31

i don’t know why you’re getting so many unhelpful comments. I would find it so difficult if I was in Australia and couldn’t ever bring my children home to see my family!
Can’t advise on the technicalities re fines and legal action as not in the UK except to say I would always advise against any kind of legal proceedings in cases like this unless you really can’t help it - inevitably it would only sour relationships between the parties. I think you may just have to risk it - would your ex really hurt her children by agreeing and then changing her mind? That would be cruel.