DO CHILD ARRANGEMENT ORDERS EXPIRE AT A CERTAIN AGE?

[mummytippy]

Please can someone advise if a Child arrangement order expires at a certain age?

My Ex partner took me to the Family Court 2013 through to 2015 where an Order was put in place for contact. Our DS was 8/9 at the time.
The court order stipulated pretty much the informal arrangement we had in place at the time... our D/S would stay with his Dad for 2 nights alternate weekends, so 52 night a year and share school holidays.

DS is now 16 1/2 and does not want to stay over at his Dad's anymore.
My ex partner lives 2 hours away and my DS will neither let me take him, or catch a train (which he has done on 2/3 occasions) in as many years.
DS is now at college, has a girlfriend and a PT job which he works most weekends. I have suggested a half way meet (where I'd drive my DS) so they could at least have lunch on a regular basis but my ex partner always seems to have a reason not to be able to make it. Our DS has been pretty much let down by his Dad all the way through his life and my son has very sadly said he doesn't like his Dad or staying at his house. The last time he stayed there was summer last year where my DS actually rang me from his Dad's asking to come home sooner than had been arranged (after 2 days, where he was meant to be there for 5)... could I arranged a train ticket.

The reason for my question is the CMS are involved in calculating the child maintenance, and it is calculated as per the child arrangement / court order. The order does not reflect the contact my son has and hasn't for about 2 years. When I've advised them of this, they say they have to work to the court order held on file.

I've done the online calculation and the difference between the CMS calculation and how it should be based on actual contact is over £100 + per month.
I rang the court today to find out if the order has 'expired' now my ds is 16 and they couldn't answer my question as can't give legal advice. The order is so old it has my DS's primary school on it.

I'm currently between jobs and the extra child support would come in very handy in the current financial climate especially with a fast growing teenage boy who is currently eating me out of house and home!

I've also Googled to try and find the answer and there are 2...

1, A Child Arrangements Order may be varied or discharged by the court either in existing family proceedings, or on a free-standing application... (obviously proceedings have been finalised) 7 years ago...

or

2, Fill in the C100 form to make an application and send it to the family court closest to where your child lives with £232 fee. You must give brief details of why you are making the application. It's not clear if Mediation would have to have been done before submitting the application.

If someone could advise I'd greatly appreciate it as I want to contact the CMS and update them officially as I think that's what they need in order to recalculate things.

TIA.

A CAO expires when the child is 18, so I'm afraid the one for your son is still in force.

They expire at 18, unless you go back to court to have it amended.

Thank you @abracady and @prh47bridge

I wonder why the court clerk couldn't just tell me that!

So, looks like I will be going back to the Court.

Do you know if I can I ask to have the current CAO amended based on my DS's wishes as he's older now and has a part-time job, or do I have to reapply and state 'lunch/tea time dates' only? Seems odd re-applying when my DS doesn't want to see his Dad anymore, but I can't afford not to make a change from the CMS's calculation perspective.
I'm guessing it's the same fee... to amend or new application but then a new application would mean mediating first... are either of you able to advise please?

The above advice is incorrect. It expires at 16 if it is a contact order, but 18 of it is a residence order, so it depends on how your order is worded.

Take the CMS to the tribunal. They are wrong about this (as usual).

I've also been told my contact order has to be used unless I change it in court. Ex has dropped the night that nudged him into a higher deduction bracket. Of course if I go to court to change it he'll plead work and he's now made changes and have them for a few weeks/months so court won't 'take away' his contract for that night. Guess what will happen soon after.

As yours are to old to be made to go you should challenge it good luck

I'm not sure this is correct, there are no separate orders now, child arrangements orders cover both residence and contact. Is this up to date information?

Get a free half hour consultation with a family lawyer, they will be able to tell you exactly what's needed if it is 18

They generally expire at 16, although the live with part is legal until 18, but its unlikely to be challenged by the court.

For example my order states my children live with me but see their dad at set times, they can essentially stop these at 16 and the court would not get involved, should they decide at 16 they no longer wanted to live with me and live with their dad, court would be unlikely to get involved.

It would probably cost you more to take him to court and they're unlikely to vary the order at this age over this. What if your son changed his mind again in favour of some other visiting pattern

From that then it looks like CMS are wrong and they should go on actual contact and not the order from now on

But surely as a child gets older and develops their own life, contact will vary, and you can’t keep going backwards and forwards to court? Nor would it be reasonable to insist a teenager misses out on a part time job, just so they can adhere to a contact order?

Apologies, yes, Collaborate is correct. Everything expires at 18 but the contact provisions expire at 16 in most cases.

My gs who lives with me refused contact from 16. He had had the most miserable enforced contact for some time. I always understood the contact order ended at 16 (and had advice upon this) unless there were compelling reasons otherwise but these were rare. As his dad and family were the most litigious bullies ever, I have no doubt that if I had been wrong in any way I would have been taken back to court yet again.

The CMS do not provide legal advice. They only use the court orders as a basis to confirm how many nights per year your ds stays overnight with the non resident parent. As your ds is sixteen and the order is essentially at an end, it no longer applies but good luck telling them otherwise. I had all of this and for the extra I would get, I just let it go. If your ds is still in education, then CMS payments will continue.

I dont think there is any need for you to apply to the courts opening a can of worms not to mention the expense.

Thanks for all the comments, they're much appreciated.

Today I rang the CMS to tell them the situation that my ds no longer wants to go and stay at his Dad's. They told me to report a change of circumstance online. The CMS rep' stayed on the phone while I did it. One of the final questions asked on the form was is there is a written agreement or court order between the parents, to which I said yes and the CMS representative advised me to answer no. I told her I couldn't answer no because there is, and they currently hold it on file. I also added that I had queried the matter of my ds not wanting to stay back in 2018 and was told nothing could be changed because of the court order held on file... and that they had continued to work to that. I asked would the same problem not arise again once they looked to review the change. I didn't feel confident that the rep' I was speaking to knew her stuff so I asked her to ask a colleague although she was sympathetic to the situation as I stressed I'm upset my ds's father doesn't seem interested. Once she'd spoken to her colleague she said to still submit the change (as there's 11-12 week wait) but to not upload the court order. She said with regard to the court order I would need to get legal advice as they cannot give it and then depending on that advice I could potentially be uploading a new document. You have 14 days to upload the document!

I feel it would be helpful if they knew the basics... eg. 'lifespans' of each type of CAO.

So I have notified them of the change and although my ds hasn't stayed overnight with his Dad properly since 2019, I dated the change back to September last year when he started college as him starting college, having a part time job and a girlfriend are his definitive reasons now for not wanting to go.

As far as the legal advice goes I rang a few local solicitors and one offers a free 15 mins Q&A on a Thursday afternoon so I'm going to go to drop in to that and ask my original question...
1, Can I amend the CAO,
2, Can I re-apply (which I do not want to do)
3, Can it be dissolved and take things from there.

I checked the wording of my CAO as it looks to be a residency order as it is worded... 'The child shall live with the applicant mother during school term time save that he shall live with the respondent father on alternate weekends Friday to Sunday. I remember my ex partners solicitor complaining at the final hearing at the wording of 'have contact with the father' so it was changed to the above so it sounded fair... and the word 'live' was used for him too. I feel this wording could potentially be the issue that is maybe going to cost me money.

I learned that the CMS remain involved until the child reaches the age of 20 if they stay on at college and as long as you're in receipt of child benefit. Based on this I feel it would be worth a court application fee based on the financial monthly difference and my ds will at the very least be in fulltime education for at least another 18 months.

@ElsieMc

I'm so sorry for your experience. My ex partner and family were bullies too and actually sought the order and my ex partner was actually awarded custody at the first final hearing due to the poisonous web of lies he told about me. It was the most painful chapter of my life up to losing both my parents in the last 2 years.
I applied back to the court 6 months later and one judge kept the case and saw it all the way through. He sussed him out and with my evidence he said that he could already see through all of his lies and actually made him apologise to me for all the hurt he'd caused my ds and myself. There was absolutely no need for what he did and now I feel I owe him absolutely nothing hence me wanting to set the financial record straight.

That is a "lives with" order, so it expires when your son is 18. You need to apply to have the order varied or discharged. You cannot get a new order - the courts can only make a CAO where the child is 16 or over in exceptional circumstances.

Thank you @prh47bridge

Do you know if I have to submit a C100 form to have it discharged please?
Is this a common request? and do I apply to the Court closest to where I live with my DS, or the court which granted the order? (different county)... Oh and will Mediation be required?

Yes, you need a C100. You can submit it online. Unless an exemption applies you will need to attend an MIAM.

Thank you @prh47bridge

Are you sure you want to put yourself through all that for the sake of £100/month?

@SweetSakura

It can't be as bad as the original case as I will be applying for the order to be discharged. The relationship with my ex partner is simply lip service from him towards my ds and myself as far as I can see. He doesn't even phone ds let alone come and see him so I can't see how this will further impact on ds. I have tried to promote contact until I am blue in the face.
My ex partner applied to the courts in the first place out of spite to get at me with no regard to what this would do to ds who was 6 at the start of proceedings at 8 at the end... May 2013 through to October 2015.
I don't see why I should let him get away with not paying what he should towards our ds. He earns in excess of £50k a year and I am currently between jobs.

Prior to court proceedings we had a informal agreement. As I have explained further down in my last comment, I temporarily lost custody of ds to him and at this point he involved the CMS to calculate things fairly (when I had said I would pay him the same amount he'd been paying me) but he refused to accept that. When it was calculated by CMS I paid him a 1/4 of the amount he'd been paying to me as I worked part-time. This angered him but he'd involved them. Then when custody was rightfully reversed back to me the CMS recalculated the maintenance and he had to pay twice the amount he was previously paying. This angered him further but over time he said to me he realised it was all his own doing.

I'm at the point where I am struggling and he is not even speaking to our son. We were meant to meet up half way for Christmas (between Christmas and New Year) but when I tried to finalise arrangements he said he was skint so couldn't and it will have to be February... it's always been like this. Any extra money he can pay, after living expenses and everything else are paid out I will save anything left for DS.

Have had a text from CMS saying:

'We've updated your case with the changes you've told us about.
Thanks for letting us know - no further action is needed'.

I've logged in and online and tracked the shared care change and it says it's 'Processing'.

Basically I'm not trusting the text!

I've contacted my local mediation provider and asked to make an appointment.
I've informed my ex partner that I've done this also as a new way forward does need working out. Hopefully it can be done ammicably.

What happened in the end?

My thoughts exactly. The son is 16 and will soon be 18. Changing the order now will likely create a war which your son will not appreciate in the long run.