How ‘specific’ is a Specific Issue Order?

[Nearlyalldone]

Just wanted to check something with you.

When you make a Specific Issue Order application if your ex refuses permission for you to take the children abroad on holiday (we have a CAO), is the application order just for a single specific holiday (e.g. 2 week holiday to Tenerife during the six weeks school holidays from the Xth of Aug 2023 to the Xth of Aug 2023)? Or, would the application cover any requests to take the children on holiday to Tenerife during any school holiday in the 2023? If the Specific Issue Order is granted by the court, would I be able to take the children to Tenerife in future years without needing permission from my ex?

In a nutshell, how ‘specific’ is a Specific Issue Order? Would I be better off trying to seek a variation to the CAO instead to cover this issue more permanently?

Thanks!

How specific an SIO is depends on the wording of the order.

Does the CAO say that your children live with you? If it does, you don't need your ex's consent. Note that it doesn't have to say they live only with you. If it names both you and your ex as people with whom your children live, either of you can take your children out of the country for up to one month without needing the other's consent.

Thanks - sorry, I was trying to obscure the details a bit to reduce the chances of ‘outing’ myself.

I have a lives with order and I haven’t given my ex permission to take the kids away on holiday (I have genuine safeguarding concerns, I’m not being vindictive). He’s applied for an SIO for a specific date to take the kids away on the holiday. However, the date of the court hearing is after the date the my ex has specified to take the children on the holiday (he applied for the SIO late and the court has big backlogs).

I wanted to know if his SIO is just for the specific dates he requested (which will have passed byor if he can use the same application to take the children away to the destination after the court case is completed at a later time in 2023.

Given that the hearing is after the proposed holiday, he may be allowed to modify the dates. However, if the order states specific dates when he is allowed to take your children out of the country, it only provides authority for those dates. He would need a separate order if he wanted different dates. The courts wouldn't take kindly to you quibbling over a day or two, but an order allowing him to take the children out of the country in, say, February does not allow him to take them on holiday in August. However, an order allowing him to take them out of the country on unspecified dates in 2023 would allow him to do so at any time he wanted during that year.

Thank you - he stated specific dates in his SIO for a specific event abroad, but the first court hearing is scheduled multiple months after the event (the court has a massive backlog). I’m not entirely sure why the court hearing was scheduled because the hearing date is months later than the event that the SIO application is based on.

I’m not entirely sure why the court hearing was scheduled because the hearing date is months later than the event that the SIO application is based on.

The Court will want to understand why you refuse to give him permission to take them on holiday during the school holidays. Basically you need a very good reason to refuse to allow the other parent take your joint children abroad during the school holidays in the time they are spending with him.

And he can change his request to include the whole of 2023 or whatever a few weeks/days before it gets in front of the judge, particularly if he is represented.

(You can ask for your thread by to be removed by MN HQ if it's too outing.)

Thank you for your explanation. So, the answer is that a Specific Issue Order isn’t all that ‘specific’ after all….

Just to point out that the judge can vary the child arrangements order to a shared lives with order so that either parent can take the child abroad without the other's consent during their time with the child. Consent would then only be needed if the holiday encroached on one or other parent's time with the child.

There are always solutions to prevent repeated trips to court.

Could the opposite situation happen too? Could the CAO be varied by the judge to prevent my ex taking the children abroad to this specific destination as a result of the SIO? As I said above, I’m not being vindictive, I have genuine safeguarding concerns about my ex taking our children to this specific country.

"specific" does not mean "narrow". It refers to a specific exercise of parental responsibility - for example education or, in this case, taking abroad on holiday.

The issue tensds to be narrow where the dispute is over a opne off holiday - or a particular country. More often than not the court will need to hear a damn good reason why a father cannot take a child abroad on holiday. If he's already got the child for 2 weeks in the summer then the understanding should be that he can take them abroad during that time unless there is a risk of abduction.

I have genuine safeguarding concerns about my ex taking our children to this specific country.

Tenerife is part of Spain. Spain is a developed country and a signatory to The Hague Convention.

As the PP indicated you will basically will need to come up with a extremely good reason why the other parent who has their children overnight during the year can't take them to a a developed country that is a signatory to The Hague Convention in the school holidays in the time the children are suppose to spend with that parent.

Is it the country that is the problem specifically or is it a risk for him to take the child abroad at all?

Have you taken legal advice? You sound like you need to speak to a lawyer about your actual facts. If the country is Country A and your ex is from Country A and wants to bring the children to their grandparent's birthday party in Country A do you have reason to fear that he won't bring them back? Or do you not like his extended family but actually have no objective to fear him not bringing them back? Does he tend to go partying when out with his friends/ siblings and leave the kids with his parents which you disapprove of? If he's quit his job and lives in rented accommodation, and has threatened to bring the kids to Country A and not return them before, that's very different to him going out drinking with his friends when back home and leaving the kids safely with their extended paternal family. In the former case risking the costs and stress of a court date might be your only option, in the latter it could backfire horribly on you (including your kids later resenting missing connections with their paternal family).

Just a quick update - turns out that (in my case at least) a ‘Specific Issue Order’ is actually specific!

Recently had the court hearing. My ex’s dates for travel that were specified in his application were all that was considered. His application failed spectacularly to the extent that he’s had a Prohibited Steps Order placed on him to prevent him taking the kids out of the UK full stop (as I said, I had genuine concerns about him taking the kids abroad).

this was done after his trip or before?

Wow! Thats quite a thing! Was the country really Tenerife?