Retraining in law at 36 with young kids - possible or not?

[WomenShouldWinWomensSports]

So the background is, I'm currently not working (technically self employed as an editor), I was supposed to return to work as a biology teacher in September but couldn't actually afford the childcare bill and it was a job I don't really love and don't feel I'm doing my best work in.

BA Archaeology. Conversion course. PGCE Biology. MSc Bioarchaeology. Damn good at research and writing essays.

I've been at a career junction for a while now, and out of teaching for the last 8 years. I have mild bipolar disorder and ADHD.

Today it struck me that I have a lot to offer to the legal profession. I am drawn to the GC threads, even though I don't know everything people are talking about (gardening??), I am horrified by injustice and am thinking I'd like to retrain as a lawyer.

But I don't know where to start. The Law Society have recently changed it so you don't do a GDL/LPC anymore (that's how my now-retired aunt qualified years ago), you now seem to learn "on the job" then take an exam.

I don't really understand how to now get the experience to become the type of lawyer I'd like to be. I dream of working in corporate law and scrutinising contracts (I'm that person who DOES read the T&Cs).

As a mother I am solely responsible for two children under three years of age, one starts school this coming September. DH is on the scene 1 day and 1 evening a week due to his own work schedule. No family to watch the babies etc.

Would volunteering for the CAB get me to where I'm looking to go anytime soon as that's the only thing I can think of? Or is it the "wrong" area of law and therefore no good to get into corporate law? With my age (36), is corporate an unrealistic goal?

I'm within 1hr commuting distance of London but only recently moved here so no idea what's available.

Can anyone advise me on this at all please? I've posted in this topic specifically because I know there's quite a few practising lawyers in here who might have current info about this.

Lots of lawyers qualify when they are older, as solicitors. It should certainly be possible. The law firms tend to recruit quite a few years ahead - eg someone in year 3 of their degree would be looking for a training contract place (these still exist under the new system of SQE) which would start 1 o r 2 years later - so you need to plan your timings for this and perhaps obtain a vacation scheme (work experience of a week or two which is paid from which many firms recruit trainees).

Have a look at www.lawcareers.net/ which lists some of the firms' deadline for applications for training contracts particularly if you hope to find a firm to pay for your studies.

You are right there is a new system (SQE rather than LPC) but quite a lot of firms want their future lawyers either to have an LLB (3 years law at university) or a law conversion course, even though it is no longer a requirement.

The City Consortium firms put their future trainees through a 2 term full time PGDL (law conversion) with BPP , then a term for the SQE1 exam training, then do the SQE1 exam then SQE2 training and SQE2 electives/enhanced course and SQE2 exam (and then you do 2 years training/ QWE at the firm whilst being paid after all those exams are passed). So whilst in theory the system has changed and as you have a degree you could even put yourself in for the SQE1 and 2 exams without taking any course (the exam fees alone are £4000) and do 2 years of work experience giving legal advice, it may be hard to find a job once you qualify if you have not had more conventional legal training.

You could certainly apply to law firms (who recruit several years ahead and might sponsor you - pay you - to take the PGDL/SQE full time -they pay the fees and an annual allowance of up to around £15,000 a year). If you look at the bottom of this link there is a useful diagram of what the city firms want people to do who are sponsored by them www.slaughterandmay.com/media/rs2jvepv/the-city-consortium-solicitor-training-programme.pdf

So we have a new system which in some ways in my view is worse as it makes people think it is easier to qualify (which in a sense it is) but could mean people qualify without good courses being undertaken and then they cannot get a job.

Most of the better firms want you pass all the exams before you start the 2 years of training . However you are right that not all firms require that and in theory you could do exams whilst learning on the job.

Ideally you would find a firm that would pay for all these courses and exams for you.

Good luck. I am sure I and other lawyers posting on MN would be happy to give help or ideas. I have 2 solicitor daughters too and 2 sons who are trainee solicitors so this is all pretty close to home for me (and I have been a solicitor for decades too).

Thank you Xenia for saying what I have been trying to impart to people that although you can do the SQE and 2 years work experience possibly in a narrow field as a paralegal that it won't necessarily mean you are employable and it just shifts the bottleneck further down the line.

Also as you say it is doable and another route the OP may want to consider is going the CILEX route.

I've recently qualified and I am 33 so admittedly slightly younger.

I went the non traditional route in that I qualified via CILEX whilst working as a paralegal. I did have a law degree but you can do CILEX without a law degree (it just takes longer).

I also spend a lot of time scrutinising contracts but I'm not in corporate - I'm in litigation and defend a lot of contract dispute cases. Personally I think litigation is the most exciting area

Hi OP. Solicitor here. Please think carefully about what you'd like to spend your working days doing. Retraining as a solicitor is likely to be a very big commitment.

Being a corporate lawyer is different from being a commercial lawyer, and both of these are very different to being involved in human rights / equality legislation.
Volunteering in a CAB won't really help you if you want a career in corporate law.

IMO all legal roles involve A LOT of stress and pressure. Do you cope well with this?
Will you be able to learn and retain a lot of new information? Deal with difficult clients under time pressure?

I'm mid forties and feel fairly burnt out after 15 years as a corporate lawyer.

@Xenia Thank you. I am glad I asked this now, as I could definitely plan ahead, with a view to applying to start in a future intake year when the children are in a school.

My impression from the Law Society pages when I started the thread was that the GDL was no longer available to new applicants, but I suppose that's lesson number one, to not take the first source at its face value, as they didn't offer the information that the PGDL exists.

@SeasonFinale yes I think this is going to be a big issue going forward, but I know there were issues with the former system, which is why my aunt (who retrained in her forties) advised me against doing law back in sixth form and I put it out of my mind as an option.

@sittingonacornflake Thanks, I've taken a look at that route now too, I'll keep an eye on it in case a paralegal job comes up that doesn't require experience and in the meantime I'll look into volunteering at the CAB for the coming year to get experience so I can maybe move into training/paralegal work next year.

It seems really clear and doable now.

I've found another website that lays out which universities currently offer the PGDL along with course fees. One question (if anyone knows) is, if I study a self-funded PGDL before applying for a contract, does it matter which university I do it at? My undergrad and MSc were at a decent (non-Oxbridge) uni, I don't know if that is valued or not. Or is it the case (as with PhD funding) that if one can't get someone else to pay for it, one maybe should question the value of what one is doing?

I’m surprised by the responses, they are missing that law is very hard to get into, it’s hugely competitive field and corporate is one of the most competitive as it’s where the money is.

But you are all over the place, do you want to do human rights, criminal, contract, you don’t need to know now, but you are talking about vastly different areas of specialism.

i would spend time researching it further.

@thinkfast sorry your reply came in while I was reading around the links and names mentioned upthread and I missed it.
Will you be able to learn and retain a lot of new information? Yes this is literally the only thing I was good at when it came to being a teacher. I have no science A-levels but managed to do the conversion courses and teach science.

For fun, I have taught myself A-level maths then gone on to study it at the OU; I regularly wade through complex mental health guidelines and research to find out answers to questions about my mental health and when I was pregnant I did the same thing with the obstetric guidelines in the country I was in at the time. Working with huge amounts of complex information is my superpower. I just don't know how to point that in the direction of a satisfying and stable career.

Deal with difficult clients under time pressure? I think I would need more experience working with adults in a legal context before I could say for sure, but as an editor I've had my share of "prima donna" clients needing last-minute solutions (and also paid my way through uni working in finance and insurance call centres where you get the very worst of people), as well as having graduated in a recession and worked in McDonalds for 2 years out of uni, where people were literally throwing pots of tomato ketchup or beer bottles at me some nights while waiting for their food and there was very little we could do about it.

I don't really know what I want to spend my working days doing, but I know what I don't want to do and that's feel like I'm wasting my time, that's the biggest reason I've left jobs in the past. I want to feel like I'm actually doing something that I care about. Maybe law isn't the right thing but I'll do a boatload of research to find out and hopefully narrow it down.

Obviously personal living arrangements aren't the same as yours but my neighbour has just qualified having studied pt for a degree tgen professional exams. She started work September

I think no one can really comment on how difficult the law will be to get into by the time the OP is ready to apply for roles.

In the last couple of years there has been a huge shortage of qualified professionals / big demand for candidates. However who knows if that will be the case in the current economic climate?

You sound like you might be well suited to the law OP. Give the law society a call to see if they can give you some guidance on the best route for you to enter the profession.

@Thefriendlyone Where have I mentioned human rights or criminal law? I couldn't think of anything worse! Those are the two areas I know I don't want to get into, along with family law! I wouldn't mind doing it as a secondment or something but not as a career. You're not thinking of the student midwife in AIBU with a similar current thread who said she didn't want to go into law, are you?

I see what you're saying about competitiveness of legal positions but I suppose the counter-argument to that is every place has to go to someone. What I'm trying to establish is whether my age is going to prejudice me in that regard or whether I can still get in on my own merit. If my own merit isn't enough, it isn't enough, and there's nothing anyone can do about that, but if it is, I think I could get somewhere with this.

Hi OP. You mentioned an interest in the gender critical Mumsnet threads in your OP, which is why some of us assumed you had an interest in human rights law. Equalities legislation impacts on several different areas of law, but human rights or employment law are the most typical areas it affects.

Sorry I thought that’s what you meant when you said you were drawn to thr gc threads and hated injustice.

You could look at apprenticeships too. You can still qualify as a solicitor and even the big firms are starting to offer them.

You might want to look up FAIRE which is an online careers fair for aspiring lawyers.

People do qualify later in life, I did, but it isn't easy and you need to be quite careful in your research. The profession is varied and while information might be correct it might not be representative of all specialisms, firm types or geographic areas.

For example the average salaries often quoted are hugely distorted by the US and Magic Circle firms who pay massive salaries but expect a pound of flesh and your soul in return, they are a total contrast to the salaries paid at a provincial high street firm.

You need to consider that you may need to do a couple of years paralegal work to qualify and salaries for paralegals can be very low, even at large national or regional heavyweight firms.

@Thefriendlyone @thinkfast Ah, I see, sorry I maybe should have been clearer on that front, but I didn't want this to inadvertently end up being a TAAT. I was reading a thread about Eventbrite, and it seemed to be emerging that the situation was all down to contract law (as far as I could see) and a sticking point between posters on the thread was whether the big multinational corporation was subject to English or US law, which got me thinking, the complexities of contracts is fascinating and has applications in all sorts of surprising areas! I love reading a good back-and-forth, and I'd like to channel that energy into a career that will be fulfilling.

I've noticed quite a few complicated legal situations in the FWR forums over the past couple of years (I often just lurk as I have nothing useful to add to most of them) and it's given me a real insight into various ways individuals can inadvertently come into conflict with their employers or their service providers even when their beliefs are protected by law.

I also think there are times when mature applicants are welcomed applications as they can add a dimension younger trainees/solicitors can't. I qualified as a mature student as a solicitor.

On where to study, law conversion courses are professional exams so the usual institutions, even the best ones like Oxbridge, Durham etc are ont the places to use. 80% of future trainee solicitors use one of University of Law (what used to be called the College of Law) or BPP. The city Consortium firms use BPP for the 2 term PGDL law conversion course - also called law foundations course.

You can do it with a masters loan from SFE if you have not already had a masters student loan but I believe about £2k of the fees will not be covered so you would need to raise that. Or you could find a law firm to sponsor you. That is very very hard by the way and as someone said above even the top candidates from the best universities with high A level grades do find it hard to get jobs etc. Law is very competitive.

Or you can do the PGDL without a masters (the masters is a bit pointless, adds a bit of work and is only really there so people can get a student loan for it if they need one so it is not like other post grad masters at all.

www.bpp.com/courses/law/postgraduate/pgdl-law-conversion-course
I think you can either do PGDL with SQE1 course or you can uncouple the two and just do PGDL first. It is all a lot more complicated under the new system with many more choices which in my view makes it worse.

All the above is different for barristers by the way so we are just talking about solicitors. Barristers still all either start with an LLB or a law conversion course.

I am a lawyer with children, you will need to consider that you may be required to do long hours during the early years which is incompatible with young children if your DH is unable to share the load or you don’t have family nearby for the inevitable sick days, training days etc. You may want to consider a role in the public sector or charity which tend to be more amenable to flexible working/shorter hours and you wouldn’t have to do evening client networking. Unfortunately the trade off is that generally the pay is pretty rubbish in these areas but it’s a trade off for work/life balance.

@WomenShouldWinWomensSports “gardening” means there is a website raising funds to pay legal fees. MN rules mean they can’t post a link but if you Google the persons name you usually find the relevant website.

You are not too old.

However, "pouring over contracts" is not something that corporate lawyers do a lot of. Commercial lawyers do more of it, but even then, there is a fair amount of really boring, tedious document management to do. A lot of the role is about business development, client relationship building and minding. Quite often you have to spend a lot of time understanding what a client wants, needs, can accept, how their business works, what risks there are. You have to negotiate with the counterparty. That can be highly frustrating at times and requires excellent people skills as well as quick thinking.

The "easy" part is to put all of that into contractual words.

I would say that commercial is -on the whole- not as up and down and "all nighters" as corporate or litigation.

If you like technical stuff, I would recommend tax law.... Corporate has a big focus on deal making, and although some drafting is involved, the due diligence work you get stuck on for the first years can be extremely dull!!

CAB is great, but it will give you zero insight into a career in commercial law.

I would go for a paralegal job and see if you like what the qualified people are doing.

@JesusMaryAndJosephAndTheWeeDon Thanks, with regards to money, after seeing the struggle the barristers are going through at the moment, I do want to pick my next move with care, as I can't pretend money doesn't matter at all.
@SeasonFinale Oh, that's good to know! My aunt qualified in her forties and struggled to get anywhere, so ended up going back into her old job, but that was 30 years ago and in rural Wales.
@Xenia Thank you, that makes sense. I have already had my student loan allocation for a masters, but I see several providers are commutable and not too costly for the PGDL, especially part-time. I'll compile a list and start researching options. And yes, definitely looking at solicitor, not barrister.
@breathcalmly Thanks, that's the kind of thing I need to factor in. Do you have a lot of evening networking?
@Princessglittery Ah, thank you for that.

*www.bpp.com/courses/law/postgraduate/pgdl-law-conversion-course
I think you can either do PGDL with SQE1 course or you can uncouple the two and just do PGDL first. *

You can uncouple the two. I'm doing the PGDL through BPP right now. I'm not intending to qualify as a lawyer, hence not doing the SQE1, but my understanding is you can either do the PGDL as a stand-alone - as I'm doing - or couple it with the SQE1, or with a project to make a masters, or with barrister training of some sort.

I'm doing the part time, distance learning course. It's a combination of self-study (through materials they provide) and two live seminars a week. Those are delivered on either a weekday morning, a saturday, or two evenings (your choice).

I'm impressed by how well structured and organised the course is. I have been surprised by the amount of work - I have several postgraduate qualifications already, and this is significantly more intensive.

If it would help to chat through my experience of BPP then I'm happy for you to message me.

Just out of curiosity - why are you doing a law conversion course?

OP I qualified in my mid 30s and found it wildly competitive. I work in litigation so not the sort of work you'd be keen on - although we do have to pour over contracts etc (just not amend them).

Personally I wouldn't recommend spending the money you'll need to spend to qualify unless you are funded through a firm. I didn't have my LPC funded for me but only spent the money on it once I'd received a training contract. I know of so many over qualified paralegals who' incurred huge amounts of debt only to never be able to qualify.

Ex-lawyer here. I just can’t recommend this. Competitive to get into, (usually) expensive to train, inevitably characterised by very long hours certainly when you start but often for many years ahead, when you have young children and no support network. Quite a limited understanding of the profession so far (though that may be why you’re asking… fair enough). I’d suggest you re-visit. Sorry - I don’t mean to be a doom monger but this is screaming “bad idea” to me.