Architect messed up; who should pay?

[Flymeaway4]

Does anyone know where we might stand regarding the below issue with our architect please? He's been painfully slow and seemed to cut corners from the start, but this is the last straw.

We initially had a different architect, who did the survey. Switched to this new one, as he had more experience with listed buildings (grade 2 listed), so we thought he'd more easily get us through the planning stage, which he did. We then got him to do the construction drawings too.

Brother in law is a builder. Before drawings were complete he noticed a discrepancy with the height of the utility. Eventually the architect agreed to investigate and turns out the original architect's survey drawing had some measurements wrong; new architect had only done check measurements on some dimensions and assumed the rest were correct. He said this was because we didn't pay him for a new survey, so he can't be held responsible. We were annoyed at the delay it took to figure this out, especially as he never mentioned it might be a good idea to survey it again, but fair enough.

We've now got started with the build and had £12k of steel fitted. The steel company specifically asked the architect to confirm the height of the steels. Again, took forever for him to accept responsibility for this, but eventually he came out to site with the steel manufacturer to measure. I was 37 weeks pregnant at the time, so never saw what was measured. It's now been fitted and is wrong (the gable sits too high and infringes on the first floor windows). Architect came out and confirmed the steel company have cut and fit 'correctly', ie. as per his drawings, but he says the windows are bigger than in the survey from our original architect, which is where the problem originated. Architect is now on holiday and we're trying to figure out how to fix it, but either way it will cost a lot of time and a lot of money. Given the new architect knew there were issues with the original survey and given he specifically came out to site to measure the one dimension that has proved incorrect, I feel he needs to foot the bill for fixing it, but I've no idea where we stand legally, especially given that he never carried out the survey with the original mistake.

In case it's relevant, the survey drawings from the original architect also have a disclaimer that they should only be used for their original intended purpose, ie. as planning drawings, not construction drawings, or something to that effect. We had no idea til now that was the case.

Thanks for your help

Planning drawings are, effectively, cartoons. DH is a structural engineer and these drawings cannot be relied upon for anything. Additionally I would have expected the second architect to survey accurately. This is required for working drawings. Therefore he’s messing you about. It was his responsibility to do all the work for accurate drawings regardless of what went into planing. Eg drainage, beam calcs, foundations and other details have to go for building regs approval too.

Who calculated the size of the beam and it’s position within the structure? Architects can be very reluctant to do this and often r gage a Structural Engineer. If the architect calculated the beam size, they are responsible for the whole detailed design. This includes its position, how it’s mounted and the height of the building.

They should also have insurance. Are they a Chartered Architect? Also what input has the Historic Buildings Officer had? At II* listed they are usually all over these designs. Have they approved the detailed drawings and calcs? Surely they won’t want the beam where it is? Can you lower the beam position? I would talk to Historic Buildings officer and look at alternative designs but you are now facing significant costs. Assuming your builder is building according to the drawings, I would claim for the extra costs.

Ask your architect for a copy of his complaints procedure and professional indemnity insurance,

RIBA should have a complaints procedure. An individual architect probably wouldn’t. It’s a process of negotiation.

I cannot believe that the second architect relied on the work done by the first being correct. It is a bit like electricians being asked to sign off work done by others who mess up..they invariably refuse unless the survey it all or rip out and start again

So the first was negligent with getting the measurements wrong and the second equally so in accepting them unless your contract agreed this....however, sorting it out legally will as ever be laborious and expensive!

@Marie. I agree. It’s better to complain but get on with rectifying the issues. Try a structural engineer.

The new architect should've done his own survey and you should've paid for that.

Thank you everyone.

To answer some general questions first. We do have a structural engineer as well. He was engaged separately and, as far as I'm aware, hadn't worked with our architect before. Now, I've no idea why, but the structural engineer did most of the calculations and dimensions for the steel work, but he said the architect needed to provide the heights. The architect didn't dispute this, so we never questioned it. It's the height that is wrong.

We have Listed Building Consent for the renovation and extension, but beyond this the Conservstion Officer doesn't really seem interested (grade 2 by the way, not grade 2*). I know they're busy, maybe that's why?! We've had other issues before where we needed their input (structural issue uncovered with the roof, needed fixing and couldn't wait), but despite emails and voicemails and messages left she never responded. We just had to use our best judgement and do it in the end!

@TizerorFizz no, he is not a chartered architect, but he does have insurance, so maybe this is where we go next. How would that work, do we approach then directly, or via the architect?

We can move the beam and think this is what we'll need to do (architect suggested moving the windows, but I don't think he realises this would likely be a bigger job with scaffolding, propping the roof and original windows that will likely fall apart in doing so!). I think he will likely blame our last architect to try to get out of covering the cost of this though, so it's good to hear that shouldn't be the case.

@MarieG10 in hindsight, yes I agree. Although, to be honest, I don't recall him explicitly telling us this is what he was doing. I think he cut corners and hoped for the best. Highly unprofessional, but at the time we didn't know. In defence of the first guy and now with the knowledge we have, I'm not sure his survey needed to be that accurate, as it was for planning purposes, not construction drawings (illustrative, as opposed to properly measured) and the drawing have a disclaimer to say as much.

@Flymeaway4
You have not engaged an Architect! You have engaged a technician who is not fully qualified. You have cut costs here. You will need to counter claim. Get a Chartered Architect to do accurate working drawings. This looks like lowering the roof or lowering the floor. Then work out all your additional costs and claim via a solicitor. Talking nicely won’t get you anywhere. Your technician’s account should detail survey costs. If he didn’t do it, he’s liable for inaccurate drawings. Clearly he’s not professional! Did you ever discuss measurements with him?

A planning survey should be accurate and so should planning drawings! How will anyone know what the building looks like and whether it’s suitable? However lots of cartoons get submitted but they are not working drawings which must be accurate. Get a properly qualified architect to sort this out because you seem to be working on cartoons. Then claim.

It sounds like you're saying this is my fault, which isnt very helpful? Architect or technician, should it not be correct?

Not all qualified architects are chartered architects. Architects are ARB registered. Chartered architects are registered with the ARB and are members of the RIBA. Membership of the RIBA is not required to be a qualified architect. There’s nothing to suggest the OP has an architectural technician instead of a qualified architect.

OP you can check the ARB to see if they are an actual architect and, assuming they are, you can ultimately make a complaint to them. arb.org.uk/complaints/making-a-complaint-what-happens-when-you-complain-to-arb/

That makes it worse then. Utterly incompetent.,

Tbh it’s a bit odd. I am not a buildings architect but a similar kind of architect.

When we do drawings we don’t go out and measure things ourselves. We use a surveyor to accurately measure things, then create a design, then get structural to do their bit to make it all work (be supported and stand up.). Triple check all 3 drawings line up (survey, ours, structural) to make sure everything is A-OK. Then issue to the builders a construction set.

The builder is the one who builds it. They need to check drawings for discrepancies and bring to attention anything untoward. Which they did.

They usually get setting out done professionally, like a reverse survey where you use the plans to lay out everything on site with markers.

Really the builder is the main one in charge at this point. He’s the one trying to build this thing - on site, ordering, coordinating the programme, deliveries etc. They do sometimes come and ask for others to sign off. In this case the architect and structural would have come down and all 3 of them checked out the setting out and builder shows them the discrepancy and they all come to an agreement on the solution.

In short I have no idea why the architect is the one measuring the height on site with a steel manufacturer after construction and structural drawings are issued. It’s all very confusing.

It will massively depend on what the architect’s scope is. If he has carved out measurements and scales from his drawings, then it’s not for him to check the measurements are correct. I would expect your structural engineer to be responsible for deciding the amount and sizes of the steel required.

That’s not unusual. When different specialists take on work previously carried out by others, they often exclude checking the work of the previous specialist from their scope.

OP - what type of contracts do you have in place with the builder, architect and structural engineer?

The structural engineer, on a small residential construction, will design the beam as per the spec from the architect. As we have had several extensions, and DH is a structural engineer, the architects do work with them on heights snd accurate construction drawings. However the basic design IS the responsibility of the architect. Rarely on residential extensions does a surveyor get involved in setting out. Who pays for that? Never seen it. Never have a I ever seen a surveyor involved in a small residential extension either. An architect does this. Larger sites are entirely different, especially large commercial sites or humungous houses. An extension on a house would just have architect, engineer and builder.

If the first architect ONLY produced cartoons for planning, then the second architect WAS responsible for working drawings. Posters don’t seem to know the difference between planning and working drawings.

As I said not a buildings architects but do work some private residential.

Architects really survey themselves on residential?!
Wow that’s flipping crazy! No wonder it’s all wrong 😬

Nowadays with the tech it’s so cheap. £500 will cover most private projects to get the whole house 3D mm by mm scanned. You get sent a nice clean model with all drawings ready for you and it’s perfect every time. Who wouldn’t do that. 🤷‍♀️

And setting out yes. You don’t have to use a surveyor. But I would expect someone to set out and if he didn’t hire anyone that would be the builder

You don’t do it on a grade 2 listed building. It’s why you pay an Architect with experience of older buildings. This maybe why it’s all wrong. Reliance on tech and not experience. Building has become very much about what you can get away with that is cheap rather than considered design. Since when does a bit of tech tell you about foundations or roof design?

It does make a difference regarding who you engage and what experience they have. I’m not saying it’s the OPs fault but some people involved clearly have skewed ideas of a professional service. Yes, you must try and get compensation.

Haha your killing me Tizer.

Of course modern surveying tech is responsible for OPs incorrectly surveyed window. 😂

In all seriousness though if your in the field give it a go. Don’t knock it till you try it. Will change your life I promise 😘

*And yes could map a roof space. Every inch of a skewwhiff grade listed beam And right down to a sticking out nail.

Hi,

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I just wanted enquire as to whether you managed to successfully recover your costs from the Architect?

i am in a similar position, mid-build and an error has come to light. The architect is refusing to talk to anyone, and the project is being delayed. We have a potential workaround, but it me not what we want, and will lose significant space. Also can’t afford to pause the project as my wife is pregnant and need to be back in the house before baby arrives.

At a crossroads on where to go from here…

I’m sorry, it was a while ago now,so I can’t remember specifics. We were in a slightly different position, in that we hadn’t yet paid our architect his full fees (I can’t remember why, possibly we started work before he had submitted, I’m really not sure). In the end, he was no help rectifying it, we sorted it ourselves with our structural engineer and the company building the steels. They were great and did it as cheap as possible for us. We then deducted that cost off what we owed the architect and paid him the reduced amount (ie. His fees minus what his cock up had cost us). It was a gamble, as he threatened to take us to small claims, but we honestly believed they’d side with us even if he did (and given the issues, we weren’t convinced he would gamble the cost of taking us to court anyway). That was over 2 years ago now and we’ve heard nothing since.

if it’s the case that you’ve paid up all your fees already, then I’d suggest asking for their insurance details to start, see if you can claim that way. If not, I can only suggest small claims, but you’d probably need to fork up the costs in the meantime for that.

I’m sorry to hear you’re having issues too. I was heavily pregnant/with newborn at the time as well, it’s not additional stress that you need!