Prohibited Steps or Specific Issue Order or neither??

[Adviceplease2022]

Hi all

I’m hoping for some advice.

My ex-husband and I had a very amicable divorce (did it ourselves) and have been managing co-parenting without any major issues for the past 4 years. We have no formal agreement in place and share 50:50 custody which has worked well.

He recently took our 7 year old daughter abroad on a holiday. I found out inadvertently that he left our daughter alone in the hotel room whilst he went to the outdoor bar to drink alcohol in the afternoon. Firstly, this is actually illegal in the country they visited as children aged 7 cannot be left unsupervised. Secondly, my daughter is a bit of a wimp and scares very easily. Apparently she said she was happy to stay in the room as didn’t want to go to the bar and wanted to play on her iPad. So she stayed and he went. Yet she then got spooked and left the room to go and find him. She has a phone so messaged him to tell him that was what she was doing. However, she had to walk some distance and navigate 6 floors in the lift of a 150 + room 8 story hotel.

I’m furious but calmly asked him for his side of the story before I reacted. He admitted leaving her. Said I was overreacting and he was 100% sure what he did was ok and that he was refusing to discuss it further with me. Personally I can’t understand why you’d rather sit alone and drink a beer than spend time with your daughter on holiday but that’s another issue…..

He has another holiday in a foreign resort booked with her in a few months and I am very concerned that he will leave her again. For context, he was quite often left alone as a young child (to the point social services were involved) and drinks heavily (albeit has a very high paying successful job so I’d describe him as a functioning alcoholic).

Im very worried about her safety on their next holiday and can’t guarantee that he won’t leave her alone again because fundamentally he thinks it’s fine to leave her alone. He said he would parent her “his way” and I could parent her mine.

He’s a very arrogant man and always refuses to accept that he’s ever wrong so he’s impossible to discuss things like this with. We divorced because he was a compulsive liar, functioning alcoholic and had an affair. My post divorce counsellor believes he is a narcissist who gaslighted me massively. He does still try to gaslight me but I see it now and it doesn’t work.

So my questions are:

1. What can I do to protect my daughter from being left alone without an adult again? I’m wondering about Specific Issues Order or Prohibited Steps Orders? I don’t want to reduce his contact or stop him taking her on holiday as that would be detrimental to my daughter and she is my priority. However, I want her to be safe!
2. Am I overreacting? I don’t think that I am but the downside of being married to a narcissistic gaslighter (and now co parenting with one) is that you begin to doubt yourself too much.

One part of me doesn’t want to go down the legal route because I’ve worked so hard to ensure this coparenting has been amicable so far. Yet, the other part of me doesn’t care as my priority is my daughters safety and I don’t feel I can trust his judgement.

Many thanks for any input.

I don’t think you will get anywhere with this. Even if it were granted you wouldn’t have any evidence. I wouldn’t try personally as I doubt you will succeed and you might end up creating a lot of animosity. You can’t be that worried as you are happy for her to go away with him again.

My ex probably refers to me in such a manner:

You might want to think about how your ex can frame this situation vs your chance of success.

Why do you not think I would succeed? Genuine question.

I know I couldn’t enforce a court order and he could ignore it but it would help him to see that it’s wrong to leave a 7 year old alone in a foreign country.

I think there’s going to be animosity now regardless as I’m not happy about it and won’t change my mind and he’s not happy about it and won’t change his mind. He also won’t discuss it or come to mediation.

For the record, I’m also not happy about him taking her away again and would happily apply for an order to stop him. However, I don’t want to take any steps that are excessive and it would break my daughters heart as she is really looking forward to it. So, I’m asking what I can do to try to reduce the risk and protect her when she is with him.

I suspect if your ex is as you describe he will have all the excuses and be ready for any court proceedings.

How will you write the order? Your daughter can’t be away from your ex for 5 minutes? Be further away than 30 meters? I just cannot see how this would work out. This might be infringing on other human rights laws by dictating where your ex and daughter can go.

My daughters mum is a total fruit cake but she is the only mum daughter has despite how peculiar and dangerous she is . What she and daughter do is beyond my control.

Thanks - appreciate your input. I am not a fruitcake and I’m also not acting with any malice or vindictiveness here. I’d never ever try to restrict his contact because I totally agree he’s her dad and the only dad she has. I never ever badmouth him to my daughter and never would (although this is the first time she knows he’s done something I’m not happy about as I just couldn’t hide my reaction even though I tried).

I’ll see what the solicitor suggests but I was thinking of something far simpler than your suggestions e.g. “DD is not to be left alone without an adult whilst she is under the age of 10 and if they are overseas they need to comply with the local law on child supervision”. I really don’t think that’s an unreasonable request? I am fully aware he could just ignore any court order but at least I would know I’d tried to protect her.

If your ex is as bad as you say, don’t you worry about your DD’s safety? Again, serious question. Genuinely want to understand other peoples approaches/views in this kind of scenario. Thanks!

Should add that I also think age 10 is too young so I’m meeting him in the middle by suggesting that. I’d be thinking age 12/13 depending on her maturity at that point….:

Not agreeing with how your ex behaved but I really cannot see what you would gain from this. He will do want he wants because he won’t care about any sort of legal order.

You’d be better placed trying to advise your daughter on what to do if it happens again. Eg ring Daddy, text Mummy, go to a public place in the hotel eg Reception and ask the staff to help.

@Ikeameatballs thanks that’s helpful. I do agree with you. He’ll completely ignore anyone and everyone (including a court order) because he’s always right. That’s kind of why I can’t decide whether it’s worth doing anything or not.

It’s more feeling like I’ve tried if that makes sense?? The thought of something bad happening in the future and me being able to live with myself knowing I’d not even tried to do anything about making sure she wasn’t left alone again…..

I am currently waiting for my ex to accumulate enough rope so I can go back to court as we currently share care 50/50 of our toddler .Thankfully she is starting to hand me more rope so it won’t be long.

I agree with ilikemearballs you are more likely to keep your daughter safe by giving your daughter strategies like messaging/calling on the iPad and looking at ways of enhancing communication when she gets in a pickle.

Thanks @Skeptadad. I’m sorry to hear that. Must be awful but hopefully it’ll be sorted for you soon.

I appreciate you stopping by with your advice.

I do understand your predicament.

If you do manage to litigate this I would be interested to know if the specific issues order is granted.

Normal parents are protective of children if gets very complicated when you are doing shared parenting who isn’t child centred as you can’t agree as one person is child focused and one is focused on themselves:their agenda.

@Adviceplease2022
Any court order in the UK is irrelevant abroad, beyond you refusing to give permission to leave the UK which you have already stated that you won't do.

Given you cannot enforce any such legal order for overseas territory, I doubt very much that he will acknowledge that such behaviour is frowned upon. And he is right in that he can parent his way and you yours.

I agree that I'd never do this with my child. However, when I have been abroad, it is very clear that children from about 4 years are permitted to walk around the hotel alone, and go to playrooms etc independently. Something I personally found very scary!

I think that if you've decided that the holiday should proceed, which if I'm honest I don't think that I would permit in your shoes, then really your only course of action is getting your daughter to either say, "No I don't feel comfortable/want to be left alone" or you give her the tools for alerting someone if left alone and feels concerned, be that giving her the hotel reception number on her mobile,calling her dad or you. Not to leave the room etc.

Thank you @ChoiceMummy.

Tbh I’m not 100% decided that the holiday should go ahead. If I could stop it without it causing the amount of nastiness from his side that I know it would, then I would definitely stop it. I just don’t think that level of animosity will be good for my daughter and it would certainly descend into a nasty custody battle which would also not be good for her.

I’m torn between knowing she’s not always as safe as I would like when she’s with him but she doesn’t have warring parents, to wanting to make sure she’s always safe to my expected level but knowing this would cause a horrid court battle which would not be good for her either. Which is worse?? I feel probably a court battle at the moment given how spiteful and vindictive her dad can be. Which means I probably focus on educating my daughter and helping her learn how to be safe when not properly parented.

I think I will also see what my solicitor recommends but sounds like probably nothing…..

I agree with helping her to keep herself as safe as possible!

The other potential outcome from court of course is that you end up with a magistrate who believes that this either is acceptable as ex mitigated the risks in some way or that the magistrate feels this comes down to differences in parenting. And sadly, this is also a risk, even though it seems such basic parenting! Good luck.