Mum with dementia taking money out of her account.

[Yoohoo778611]

At long last my brothers and I have access to mums bank accounts.
She was diagnosed with dementia over 12 months ago but still able
to go out on her own.
It's taken a while to get POA for health and finance.
Mum has always been secretive about money.
The first bank statements have come through and for over the last 18 months
she has been taking out £500 per week.
Our worry is
A) where is this money
B) tax implications
C) inheritance tax
D) she might need to go in a nursing home sooner rather than later.
When we have quiered it with her she has got aggressive which is part of her dementia now.
Can we speak to the bank and stop her debit card. We have tried to get the debit card
off her but she is adimant that we are not to take it.

I'm glad you have located the money because I would have been thinking has someone befriended her and realised that she has dementia and taking advantage.

I'm glad you found the money.

Glad to hear your update and that it's confirmed she's not being scammed. I think LadyGardenersQuestionTime has it spot on if her dementia is still relatively early stage and she is paranoid/agressive if challenged. Softly softly.

How long has she been doing this for? Are there old notes in there? Slightly outing but a family member did similar and we had to change around a thousand pounds in old twenty pound notes recently

Good news, OP. Thank heavens it's nothing untoward. My Mum was the same - after she died I was cleaning up the house and found thousands stashed under all the tins in her pantry.

Well that went down like a lead balloon.
I took around one of the bank statements.
Just left it on the dining table. I didn't say anything
just carried on talking about the family.
She then asked where I'd got it from when I told her
it had come through the post because of the POA
which was set up ages ago.
She accused me of going behind her back.
I tried to explain that it was set up when she changed her will.
At that point my younger brother on his way home from work
called in as usual (he does this Monday to Friday) was told
that I was an interfering Bit**. It can't be him or older brother
it's all down to me.
I walked out and came home.
Younger brother phoned to say that she was absolutely furious.
As HE was leaving she then started to say that he was also to blame.
About an hour ago she phoned and tried to talk as though nothing
was wrong.
I've contacted older brother and he is going to talk to social services
as we don't know how to go handle this.
Didn't dare say we know about the money upstairs.
What a mess.

She then asked where I'd got it from when I told her
it had come through the post because of the POA...

Ouch.

Seriously, that was extraordinarily insensitive of you. Basically she now knows that you ARE prying, and that is a terrible feeling.

Don't get me wrong, I have POA for my mum, and her spending is so out of control that she could be out of money completely by the autumn. My brother and I both have POA, but we have to be really empathetic and sensitive about how we talk to her about what we find out about her finances. She's a difficult person, but over the last six months she's agreed to various strategies that we've suggested, that will mean that she can still have (some of) her treats in a years time - never mind having money to feed herself.

But we have never put a statement in front of her, and any mention of her balance etc is almost made in passing, and we talk more about how to plan for the future and how much she has coming in and going out. It's extraordinarliy difficult to balance the conversations, as she still has capacity, like your mum. So she could easily go back on some of the things she's allowed us to do (like look after her bank card and just bring in an amount of cash every week - this can only happen by agreement as we have no right to keep her bank card)

Putting myself in my DM or your DM's place, seeing a paper statement and discovering that it was sent to you, really brings home the loss of control that a POA has. And at this point you can only act with her agreement, so you've put the whole thing in peril.

You really need to have some empathy for her. I have an LPA with my DDs which of course they don't use at this point. But theoretically they could, with my agreement, and if they did what you did, I can only imagine the shock of the realisation that I had no privacy or control.

Actually, reading your last post, it seems that you used the POA without her agreement. If that's true, you acted illegally. An LPA is set up to either be used with the persons permission and agreement, or to be enacted fully if the person has been assessed by a doctor not to have capacity.

If she has not given you permission to USE the POA, then she has absolutely every right to be incandescent with fury.

No. See my posts above. Until a person (the 'donor' has been assessed as no longer having capacity, the 'attorneys' (OP and her DH) can only access accounts and act on the donor's behalf, with her permission. And permission has to be sought for each action they take.

With the best will, she isn't able to understand. Her mind will change what you say and she will remember a different truth to what you say.

Now is the time to use the POA, it's not interference or messing with her. You are protecting her. Put a withdrawal limit on the account if possible, deposit the cash back it the account.

It will upset her but she's not capable of rationalising it any more. I am sorry, dementia is a bastard. I've been through it with 2 family members.

I don't know how true it is, but I was once told house clearance companies are very interested in books because elderly people often hide cash in them.

@saraclara I do not believe it is always necessary for the donor to have lost capacity before an attorney can make decisions. Furthermore, someone may be acting in ways that are against their interests before they have been formally assessed as lacking capacity, in which case I believe the attorney can ( and should) step in.

This is from Age UK’s website: An LPA for financial decisions can be used while you still have mental capacity or you can state that you only want it to come into force if you lose capacity.
An LPA for financial decisions can cover things such as:
buying and selling property
paying the mortgage
investing money
paying bills
arranging repairs to property.
You can restrict the types of decisions your attorney can make, or let them make all decisions on your behalf.
If you’re setting up an LPA for financial decisions, your attorney must keep accounts and make sure their money is kept separate from yours. You can ask for regular details of how much is spent and how much money you have. These details can be sent to your solicitor or a family member if you lose mental capacity. This offers an extra layer of protection.

Put a withdrawal limit on the account if possible, deposit the cash back it the account.

@SpottyBumPony OP cannot do this without her DM's consent, unless she has been assessed by a professional as no longer having the capacity to manage her own financial affairs.
I have every sympathy with OP, my mum is an absolute nightmare to deal with. But she has been assessed several times over the last few years, and passes the tests comfortably.
Frustrating though it is, these checks and balances HAVE to be in place, to prevent abuse. And it turns out that people have the right to make bad decisions. So it's down to those who are worried about them, to try to navigate this in the best way they can. When it's our turn, that's what we'd want from our own children. Even if, at this point, we think we'd want them to take over, the vast majority of us are likely to feel very differently when it happens.

For an example, we use my DM's distrust of her carers as a lever. "It would be better if we looked after your card, mum, because anyone could take it from your purse and use it". We try to find the positives for her of us managing things for her. "I know you want to get X (her best friend) the pesent that you're planning for his birthday in a few months, so how about we cancel that direct debit for such and such, so that there's enough in your account when the birthday comes round.

@whataboutbob yes, the attorneys can make decisions for a donor who has capacity, but only if the donor has agreed to that. The norm when setting up an LPA (as far as could tell when DM's was set up, and my own a few years later) is for decision making to be restricted. I didn't tick anything that enables my DCs to make any financial decisions for me.

You can restrict the types of decisions your attorney can make, or let them make all decisions on your behalf.

I'm not a legal bod though. My experience is only in being an attorney and setting up my own LPA. So I'm happy to be corrected. And it might be that OP's DM did tick those boxes. In which case I'll get back in my box.

I agree with Saraclara I think you have massively over stepped the mark as far as your POA goes, and in part I agree with your mum, imagine what will happen if she discovers you have searched her house!

It's obvious you are trying to help and that you have the best intentions but you seriously need to read the .gov site on POA and what is required of you because if she decides to complain to the OPG you could be in a world of problems, but more importantly she may well decide to revoke your POA and then you'll be unable to help in the future.

if she's been secretive all her life and doesn't like people interfering then she obviously didn't understand the implications of the POA she was agreeing to, especially since you seem to have registered it and are using it, you need to be empathetic and try to work with her on making good decisions, it's a pain I know, my brother and I have a POA for my Dad who also has dementia but is still assessed as having capacity and like PP we have to finds ways to talk him out of buying things just because they're reduced but ultimately it's his money and his final decision.

Furthermore, someone may be acting in ways that are against their interests before they have been formally assessed as lacking capacity, in which case I believe the attorney can ( and should) step in.

@whataboutbob You are mistaken, an attorney has no power to step in whilst a person has capacity unless the Donor has agreed to this as part of the POA, OP should have received form LP11 from the OPG when she was appointed as an Attorney and it specifically outlines how she should act, I'm pretty sure searching her house without her knowledge isn't one of them.

To all those saying we have over stepped the mark by
searching mums house. I'd rather do that than find out
She is being scammed.

What kind of POA do you have?.

If it's an enduring one, you can't use it until she's lost capacity. If it's not it lapses if she loses capacity....

Yep. £500 a week (assuming that main bills are paid via DD) is a terrifying amount of money to be going out of her account. And when this is going happening, it's important that someone cares enough to investigate in case she's being taken advantage of.

We had a similar situation (though it wasn't quite as much money) and it did turn out that my mum was giving money and cigarettes to other occupants of her extra care facility (though it was questionable as to who was taking advantage of who, as she was paying them to bypass structures in place to prevent her drinking herself silly). But we only found that out by prying into her business behind her back, which made me uncomfortable, and still does.

The POA thing is different though, because there are legal issues involved.

Those who think you have overstepped the mark obviously have a very little experience of dementia.
You definitely did the right thing.

Haven't read all other posts but I work in this area. Dementia doesn't automatically mean loss of capacity to deal with finances.
A POA must be done while she still had capacity and will not be applicable once she looses capacity.
Enduring POA however, allows you to deal with finances once the person has lost capacity.
So I would say first thing you need to do is for your mum to have a Capacity Assessment. A Social Worker can help with this.

Taking 500 out of your bank every week for no reason is pretty weird. Why would you do that? If she wants to keep her money safe she would take it all out of the account and hide it under the bed so something else is going on.
There are stories of neighbours, whoever befriending the confused elderly, moving in, living off their pension. I'm sure you did the right thing to check where the money was.
My DB developed dementia, I paid his bills online using his card, sent out invoices in his name, as he was incapable. Either I dealt with it or no one did as he couldn't.

To all those berating the OP, it’s all very well in theory saying that her privacy has been violated, that the OP was wrong to have searched the house, but in reality it’s not that simple.

£500 a year is £26000. So if the mum has been withdrawing £500 a week for the past 18 months (that the OP knows about,) she’s taken £39000 out of her account and stashed it in the house.

So what happens if her DC didn’t know she had done this?

Older people are, whether we like to admit it or not, prime targets for thieves and those who like to prey on more vulnerable people. She’s developed a pattern, she goes to the same ATM every week, and then goes home having withdrawn cash. Even if she’d only withdrawn a tenner every week anyone following her pattern would know that she probably has money in the house, and could break in to steal the money and then harm (or worse kill) her for it.

These kinds of lowlife aren’t beyond hurting someone who is vulnerable in order to get hold of their cash.

And that’s before we get to the possibility of someone being scammed for their money.

TBH I would be having words with the bank as to why this pattern of cash withdrawal hasn’t been picked up. Because it should have been.

My dad has been doing similar, he decided to tell us about the 'envelope' when I scared him into telling me as they had a renewal for a particular benefit. He doesn't have dementia but is fanatical about checking his bank statements and demanding receipts for any transactions. Both of my parents are currently refusing to even contemplate POA, they want us to help them as they can no longer handle phone calls or anything that may need to be done online, but then don't want to give authority to do it properly. Consequently my dad is continuously overpaying gas, electric and water bills by huge amounts and insists on paying the council tax weekly despite receiving council tax benefit at a rate that means his current years bill is £300.
It's a minefield, recently mum's mental health has deteriorated rapidly and like yours she's swearing at everybody. Dads physical health is declining but he's decided he doesn't actually want to know why so cancelled tests. Meanwhile, social services have done a care assessment after we had to call them because parents decided to have a physical fight, conclusion was they are absolutely fine, no evidence of what we were saying so no further assessment needed.
In your case you can ask the bank to keep a watchful eye under their vulnerable customer policy but as others have said, if mum still has capacity then there's little else you can do at this stage.

I agree with posters above. It’s all very well quoting the letter of the law ( and actually I’m still not convinced you can’t manage someone’s account while they still have capacity if you are a POA). But capacity fluctuates, it is not an exact science, someone might present well one day and be completely befuddled the next and do something reckless/ be victim to a scam. The Office of the Public Guardian is so slow to react to people who are being scammed by their appointed attorneys that I doubt very much they will be bothering the OP and siblings who are just trying to get to the bottom of important sums of money disappearing and keep an eye on things.

It's OK for people to quote legalities but until you've had a relative with dementia, you cannot possibly understand how hard it is. No one wants to be checking up on their parents. Do people not realise how time consuming and stressful it all is? Of course we'd all much rather our parents had full capacity both for their sakes and for ours!
Op, you did exactly the right thing in finding out what was going on. Although it could be guessed that she was stashing it at home. Unfortunately, their paranoia becomes worse as the disease progresses and they are desperately trying to hang onto their independence. They will get angry because they're scared and saying no is the only power they have left. My mum often screams at me over things I've done for her. I'm working on not taking it personally. 🤔