Mum with dementia taking money out of her account.

[Yoohoo778611]

At long last my brothers and I have access to mums bank accounts.
She was diagnosed with dementia over 12 months ago but still able
to go out on her own.
It's taken a while to get POA for health and finance.
Mum has always been secretive about money.
The first bank statements have come through and for over the last 18 months
she has been taking out £500 per week.
Our worry is
A) where is this money
B) tax implications
C) inheritance tax
D) she might need to go in a nursing home sooner rather than later.
When we have quiered it with her she has got aggressive which is part of her dementia now.
Can we speak to the bank and stop her debit card. We have tried to get the debit card
off her but she is adimant that we are not to take it.

Raise your concerns with the bank in case there is some kind of scam going on. They are usually most helpful.

Was it in cash? Does anyone visit her at home?

I assume you have responsibility now for her finances? Would it be possible to put a limit on her card? Does she do shopping?

If you've got POA of course you can cancel the card - that's the point of PoA isn't it?

If the bank are not cooperative ask about their vulnerable customer policy,

My dad put a weekly limit on DM's card. She then forgot her number

You can't 'just' cancel her card. Until she lacks capacity then she has the right to manage her own affairs even unwisely. What POA gives you is the right to see what is happening and talk to the bank etc. Is it a regular day, can you be with here on the day? Or gets alerts set up so you know when it happens.

This is the hardest part of dementia for these type of things between normality and them no longer have capacity.

Is she involved with social services? If she will accept their assessment can help.

All in cash. We can't find out if anyone else is visiting when we are not there.
Can't think she would let anyone else in the house.
She doesn't like us being there.
There is a cash machine outside her nearest corner shop.
On Tuesday afternoon older brother is taking her to the hospital for a check up.
While there me and other brother are going to search upstairs carefully in case it's
been stashed somewhere.
Mum is very very secretive. None of us have been upstairs on our own for years.
If we want to use the loo she comes and stands on the landing.
Can't even tell you where her handbag/purse is.
This is not connected to the dementia she has always been like this.
It's only because of the dementia that we have been given a key, ours were taken off
us when we got married or left home.

Can you get a ring doorbell so you can see if someone goes to the house ? She might be giving it to someone

I had POA for my dad due to dementia. He was spending money like water when he was in the agitated middle stages of dementia and this was totally out of character, he was a penny pincher usually. I went to his bank with the POA documents and they were very understanding. They put a ceiling of £10 withdrawals a day ( he had everything he needed, lived with my brother and had careers so he wasn’t going without).

As you have POA do speak to her bank and get a limit put on her cashcard. The bank should have a vulnerable customer policy. My DM had dementia and used to hide money round the house for "emergencies" as her paranoia increased but then as her dementia progressed she forgot where she'd hidden it and accused us of stealing it! We had to check the house and contents thoroughly when we cleared her house after she went into a care home. We found documents and cash hidden inside sofa cushions, mattresses, shoes, in the shed etc. I second a ring doorbell so you can see who is coming to the house incase she's giving the money to someone.

It’s more likely she’s stashing it in the house than she’s giving it to someone or someone taking it off her. This is a very common dementia behaviour.

The same thing happened with my aunt. When we found out what she was doing and due to us being POA we managed to put a limit on how much she could take out each time. I think we set £50 max and the bank would call us for authorisation if she wanted more, only called once when she started causing a scene because they wouldn't let her take more which of course we had to allow. She went to a care home shortly after that but when clearing the house we were finding money hidden everywhere, mainly in DVD/VHS cases, back of drawers, pockets of clothes in the wardrobe, even random empty plastic bags destined for the bin. It ended up like a treasure hunt but I doubt we ever managed to find it all.

This is a similar story to that of my partner's mum. Money going missing that she could not or would not account for.
Two of his siblings had milked her for years and the other sibling was taking the money for 'safe keeping'. She had it in a safe in her home.
The two other siblings wanted to involve the police and they all had a meeting to discuss the situation. Sister handed the money over saying it was all a misunderstanding. We think she was taking the money to stop the other two from having any more.
Now none of them are friends and mum is none the wiser anyway.

What a difficult situation. Hope the bank is helpful

Dear OP,
You need to be careful. Does your mum actually lack capacity at the moment to deal with her finances? Just because she has dementia does not automatically mean that she lacks capacity. If she has capacity then you can only deal with her finances with her permission. You must remember just because you think your mum’s decision is unwise doesn’t in itself indicate a lack of capacity.

If she has been assessed as lacking capacity to deal with her finances (remembering that capacity is decision specific - lacking capacity to make complex financial decisions doesn’t necessarily mean she lacks capacity to make more straightforward financial decisions) then you can approach her bank and have a discussion about the best way to safeguard her interests such as putting a limit on the card. Remember that any action you take should be the least restrictive way possible so reducing the limit on the card would be much better than removing the card. If you need advice you can approach the local social work team.

We don't think anyone has taken the money.
Will be searching upstairs this afternoon we have about a hour or so to look.
As I've already stated she is very secretive.
My younger brother has had a casual chat with the neighborhood busybody who knows everything and she said she can't remember mum having any other visitors but the family. (She lived there when I was born so knows us all)
Mum does have capacity of her money this is going to be difficult.

I agree with others who say she may be hiding it in the house. When my great aunt died, he daughters found 3000 pounds in the airing cupboard

If your mum is taking out cash and you can't stop her but she's hoarding it at home then that's not the end of the world - it's still in her possession, she's not being scammed. Hopefully you'll be able to find it this afternoon.

If so the question is what to do next - think carefully, the best thing might be to do nothing in the immediate term, especially if she is deteriorating and you can see a time ahead where you will be able to take control without a massive row.

Regarding capacity, the question is does she understand the ramifications of taking out cash and doing whatever it is she is doing with it? (Does she know she has dementia?). It's always a bit of a nightmare, the capacity thing, and clearly she's not going to voluntarily give you Finance POA.

I can't see that there are any tax implications; inheritance tax only applies to what is actually inherited so if she's thrown the money in the bin you won't inherit it. Care home fees - if the council consider she has been deliberately depriving herself of her assets to avoid paying for the care she knows she's going to need then there might be an issue with funded care. But as she has dementia and as the money may well be stashed somewhere at home then that's not going to be a problem either.

So my advice would be - don't panic, and don't rock the boat or you may find yourselves even more shut out. Try to find the money - hopefully it's in small notes so less hard to find. Talk to the bank. And join a Dementia Cafe/online support group/carers group/whatever, you'll find a wealth of practical information from other people who've been through it like you have.

Good luck, it's such a tough thing to be going through.

The POA has to be registered with the bank- having a POA isnt enough

We had this with my mum. We first of all got a limit agreed with her bank, then a while later took her card off her completely. She was taking money out and stashing it somewhere (we never did find it, and it was a lot of money over months before we realised what was going on, and felt we could/should act)

You have my sympathies.
My Mum knew she couldn't manage money anymore and I used to manage her bank account.
Unbeknown to me she had a card for her savings account and spent the lot..
God knows how she got through it all. I think it was just frittered away rather than she was conned in any way.

I think you are wrong to search your mums house, you state she has always been secretive and doesn't allow you free access to the house, you also say she still has capacity so you have no right in law to go through her house without her knowledge. I suspect what you are doing, albeit with good intentions, borders on a criminal offence. I am also curious how you managed to get a POA, from what you say it sounds unlikely your Mum would have willingly agreed to it.
I understand you are trying to do what you think is right but as a previous poster said you must remember there are specific rules regards what you can and cannot do as a POA.

Thank you for your replies.
Mum isn't being scammed. We don't know how much
as we haven't removed it but there must be thousands
in the otterman one of the first places we looked.
As others have said we have to be careful of everything.
The POA was started one month after she was diagnosed and
3 months after my father died. It was advised by mums
Solicitor as she was changing her will.
We have registered it with her bank.
It's going to take a long gentle chat with mum about her finances.
But we will NOT be mentioning the money she has stashed upstairs.
We are also not going to put a limit on her card until after this chat.
Then hopefully she will understand our concerns not the money side
but if she is carrying a lot someone might hurt her as it's a pattern of
when she goes to the machine.

Glad you've found it Yoohoo it must be a relief to know nothing sinister is happening.
Old age can be cruel and brutal I hope the chat goes well for all of you.