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Help with financial advice for elderly mum, very complicated

26 replies

Player456 · 24/03/2022 13:14

I'd appreciate any advice for my almost 80yr old mother.

Her house is unusual. It was a three bedroom house, that had an extension, which now has an upstairs (two bedrooms and bathroom), with a kitchen, living room, etc in. Mum lives mainly in this one, with one of her dogs.

They are not totally separate, as there is a door where you can go through (where mum's other dog lives). They have separate electricity, but shared water. The idea was that my brother was going to live in the 'old' house (where we grew up), and rent out a couple of rooms, and my parents in the other.

My Dbro died in 2020. So his part wasn't used. My dad died last year.

My parents had a will sorted (when Dbro was still alive), but it turns out it is very, very badly written.

My dad had his own bank account, until last year, when he became too ill to go out, so it was changed to a joint account, to allow mum to access money for bills, shopping, etc. She was on Pension Credits, but due to his illnesses dad got a lot in disability benefits. The intention was to do much needed improvements, that never happened.

The estate is going through probate, but mum has access to dad's money, as it was changed to a joint account. This has meant mum no longer qualifies for benefits (he had about £20,000 in it).

This sounds fine, but the house is a tip! My brother and mum are both hoarders.

The 'old' house has no bathroom or toilet. You can see daylight through her front door, there is mould everywhere (in one room you can see where a leak (roof?) has followed the joints in the ceiling, causing a red mould).

The windows have cracks in the wall underneath, where a window fitter told her that she may have a problem with the house moving, there also large cracks outside, vertically across the bricks.

The house hasn't been touched for years. It would be regarded as in urgent need of renovation if it were for sale.

Mum's problem is that she's been told that if she does any improvement works, that it would be depravation of assets. The house desperately needs it though. Neither my sister or me like to go there as it is so bad (not to mention the mess and one of her dogs pees everywhere, so that room stinks).

She won't let anyone help her tidy. When dad's hospital bed came (for him to die at home), I spent time there tidying, yet mum went through every bag, in case I threw away anything important). I gave her a new phone, then she accused me of losing her photos. She got mad at my sister, accusing her of throwing away important things.

What complicates things. My sister and I are trustees of dad's estate until mum dies. I'm not sure how this affects things.

Can mum use some money for a new door, a new kitchen, new windows, maybe even a bathroom or not.

Help with financial advice for elderly mum, very complicated
Help with financial advice for elderly mum, very complicated
Help with financial advice for elderly mum, very complicated
OP posts:
Player456 · 24/03/2022 13:15

Some more photos

Help with financial advice for elderly mum, very complicated
Help with financial advice for elderly mum, very complicated
Help with financial advice for elderly mum, very complicated
OP posts:
JanetPluchinsky · 24/03/2022 13:18

I don’t understand why it would be deprivation of assets? Do you mean for if she needs care? The house IS an asset so improving it would serve the opposite.

Escarpahell · 24/03/2022 13:19

Who told her that essential repairs would be classed as depravation of assets? Surely the money spent will enhance the value of the house and therefore increase her assets? Is the house in her name?

Hugasauras · 24/03/2022 13:20

I can't see how essential repairs and maintenance could ever be deprivation of assets. Who told her that?

Hugasauras · 24/03/2022 13:23

Deprivation of assets is usually when you sign over property or give money away to family and then don't have any money to pay for your own care, when it could be reasonably assumed that that would be the case. I don't think there's any basis for repairs and maintenance and replacements to old household items to be a case for deprivation of assets: her house is the asset.

De88 · 24/03/2022 13:23

This would NOT be a deprivation of assets. She needs some real, proper advice and can speak directly to the finance team at the local authority if need be.

BeyondMyWits · 24/03/2022 13:23

Yes she can use the money, if she needs work doing for her own safety and wellbeing. Document everything, before and after. Just needs to show it was for her benefit.

Who told her she couldn't?

chesirecat99 · 24/03/2022 13:35

Money spent on essential repairs, such as the front door, leaky roof, subsidence (is that covered by her buildings insurance?) etc, would not be considered deprivation of assets. Installing a bathroom downstairs might be considered an improvement, unless she needs a bathroom on the ground floor because she can no longer manage the stairs? I would seek advice on the kitchen, whether it would be considered an improvement rather than an essential repair.

Player456 · 24/03/2022 13:40

Sorry, the depravation of assets would be if the money ran out and she needed to apply for Pension Credits. They sent her a letter saying she was no longer entitled due to her having dad's money in the joint account.

She said to them she needed to do repairs and they said that if she used money to do house repairs, it would be classed as depravation of assets if she applied for PC again.

The house isn't in her name as such. She has a lifetime interest and can sell it, only if my sister and I agree, as it was left to us, but for her to live in until she died or remarried.

OP posts:
SilverHairedCat · 24/03/2022 13:43

How does that work as D of A if it's work ordered by the trustees?

Hugasauras · 24/03/2022 13:48

Ah I suspect the issue is that it isn't 'her' home then and the money is her only asset. That makes more sense. I think you probably need proper legal advice on this.

chesirecat99 · 24/03/2022 13:54

That is the issue then. I think you and your DS are responsible for the upkeep of the property if the trust hasn't specified that your DM is responsible for maintaining the house.

You need proper legal advice from someone who has all the documentation. I would also consider getting advice on whether you have grounds for complaint about whoever set up the trust.

Palavah · 24/03/2022 13:59

It's your (you and your sister) asset so you are responsible for the upkeep.

Was there a mortgage on the property?

Player456 · 24/03/2022 14:19

According to the solicitor doing probate, mum is responsible for all the upkeep on the property whilst she is there. There is no mortgage, it was paid off a while ago.

Dsis wants mum to sell it, move to somewhere else (or puts into buying a larger house with Dsis), but I think that's just because she wants money now.

It's all a bit of a mess. The will was supposed to echo my grandparents, who just left it to each other, so no probate was needed until nan died, this is a whole lot more complicated. Dad's estate includes two cars, which my Dsis has said dad wanted her to have (not what he told me, and one is stuck at her house as she's refused to return it).

Thanks all, it may be worth spending some money to see a solicitor.

OP posts:
Player456 · 24/03/2022 14:23

@chesirecat99 I don't even know that there is a trust as such. The wording of the will was that it was left in trust to my sister and I (and dbro), until mum died or remarried, pretty sure it said that mum is a trustee too. I'm sure it said mum was responsible for upkeep, maintenance, bills and insurance.

I don't understand it as it was badly written (even the probate solicitor said it was difficult to understand). Mum and dad both jointly owned the house, so we thought that it would go to mum on dad's death.

OP posts:
CavernousScream · 24/03/2022 14:27

It’s not deprivation of assets to fix your leaking roof. That’s terrible advice. She can spend the savings on essential repairs, that is absolutely not an issue.

Viviennemary · 24/03/2022 14:30

I don't think in this case it would be deprivation of assets. Take photos before and after. The house needs to be brought up to a reasonable habitable standard. On the other hand if this house is considered to be two separate dwellings this might cause problems. Just seen the house no longer belongs to your Mum. Sounds like a good idea to see a solicitor.

Itsbackagain · 24/03/2022 14:40

The issue is that it's been left in trust to you and your siblings. Normally the trustees would be responsible for the repair and maintenance. This is where the deprivation concern is coming in. You need to check the will and the trust details fully. Until you have that information you can't move forward at all.

Verite1 · 24/03/2022 14:46

IAAL but not in this area. However I don’t understand how the will is possible in light of your last post. It is my understanding of property law that if they were both joint tenants, ownership would have passed to your mum on your dad’s death as the surviving owner. If tenants in common, your father could have passed his share to you, but your mother will still own her share. On what basis is it being said that she no longer owns the house?

Franklin12 · 24/03/2022 15:07

Who wrote the original will? Please dont say they did or a relative who thought they knew what they were doing!! I am thinking that to save money the house was given to you with lots of caveats. Perhaps to save care home fees should your Mum need to go into a home.

I would get some proper legal advice. Not us randoms on the internet. A good solicitor will look at all the facts. Dont take this the wrong way but you did drip feed that bit about your Mum not really owning the house. That is a really key piece of info.

Player456 · 24/03/2022 15:55

@Franklin12 Sorry, I didn't mean to drip feed, I was originally just after advice about PC if she paid for repairs. They didn't write the will, a solicitor did. We have another solicitor who has the will now, as he is dealing with probate. Thank you though.

OP posts:
Franklin12 · 24/03/2022 16:26

I am sorry too. I didnt mean to come across so abruptly but its a blooming nightmare and as we all know elderly parents who are known to be difficult wont improve with age.

Just bear in mind that your Mum and your DB to hopefully a lesser extent will be discussing inheirtance and who gets what and I am sure you wont be surprised if your name doesnt appear as an equal partner.

For some older people its the ultimate revenge. I have known two people do this and very messy it was too. Its a horrible thing to favour one child but people do it all the time.

Palavah · 24/03/2022 17:28

@Verite1

IAAL but not in this area. However I don’t understand how the will is possible in light of your last post. It is my understanding of property law that if they were both joint tenants, ownership would have passed to your mum on your dad’s death as the surviving owner. If tenants in common, your father could have passed his share to you, but your mother will still own her share. On what basis is it being said that she no longer owns the house?
Echoing this
Palavah · 24/03/2022 17:28

Are you in England?

prh47bridge · 24/03/2022 18:22

It is important to understand how the house was owned.

If they were joint tenants, the house is now hers regardless of anything it says in the will.

If they were tenants in common, 50% of the house is hers and she has a lifetime interest in the other 50%.

If it was not jointly owned but was in his sole name, she does not own any of the house but has a lifetime interest in it.