Sister has mum's house

[user1487194234]

Mum has dementia
It has come to light that about 1 year ago she transferred her house to my sister

There is absolutely no way mum had capacity to do that
Mum's husband died recently and mum has to go into residential care
The social worker phoned me to go over some details and she asked me if my mum owned any property and I said yes
My sister had said no when she filled in the form
The social worker has referred it to the legal department
What is likely to happen

She is in hospital waiting for all this to be sorted out
Thinking of taking on the fees myself temporarily to get this sorted but it is of course such a lot,so if the house could be sold I would like paid back

Do not take on the fees yourself. There is no reason for you to do that. Your mum is in a home and is safe. Let the social worker sort it out through their legal department. Most likely it will end up going to the court of protection.
If your mum does not have capacity then there is no reason for her to become aware of these issues thus get distressed about it.

@harrumphs

Do not take on the fees yourself. There is no reason for you to do that. Your mum is in a home and is safe. Let the social worker sort it out through their legal department. Most likely it will end up going to the court of protection. If your mum does not have capacity then there is no reason for her to become aware of these issues thus get distressed about it.

Oh bloody hell ignore the first bit of my post, so sorry!

@user1487194234

She is in hospital waiting for all this to be sorted out Thinking of taking on the fees myself temporarily to get this sorted but it is of course such a lot,so if the house could be sold I would like paid back

Get legal advice before you start paying fees. It could make things more messy and you'd have to claim back from your sister. Let the hospital/social services sort it out.

@harrumphs

Do not take on the fees yourself. There is no reason for you to do that. Your mum is in a home and is safe. Let the social worker sort it out through their legal department. Most likely it will end up going to the court of protection. If your mum does not have capacity then there is no reason for her to become aware of these issues thus get distressed about it.

Agree with this. Don't pay the fees, OP. The council will sort it and go after the house.

Do not pay the fees yourself. Communicate with your sister and get the facts

Ok
It's just that the hospital is really not nice

My parents both have dementia and we sold their house to fund their care. My mum had always been the money manager and before she got very ill she asked me to take the house to avoid it being used in this way. I looked her in the eye and said yes and then did no such thing as I knew it was illegal. I just wanted to give her peace of mind. She would be heartbroken to think it's gone and she doesn't need any more sorrow now.

I'm just telling this story to make the point that your mum/her husband could have asked for this without understanding that it was already way too late.

I would be wary of paying the fees yourself as you may have difficulty reclaiming them. There are options to have the fees charged against the house, once it's clarified as your mum's asset. We had the nursing home take a charge against the house while we sold it. That was a bit cheaper than having the local authority do it and it was handled by the solicitor who managed the sale for us.

@user1487194234

Ok It's just that the hospital is really not nice

Of course you don't want your mum to be there longer than necessary. But it sounds like the SW has only just referred to legal so hopefully you'll get (even if just a temporary) resolution soon so your mum can move

There are 2 issues here. First, the social worker will either arrange for your mum to be placed somewhere. Or if your sister is her guardian, they will press her to do it. The social worker might not choose a place that is as nice as it might be, if you get my drift. So you might want to get involved to look at finding somewhere better. But you need to consider the financial implications of that and who would be responsible for the extra money - you or your sister. Round me, good care homes are between 900 -1200 a week. Nursing homes/dementia units might even cost more because of increased staffing.

Your sister might have had the house put in her name but the council are really used to this happening and they will simply bill her and it will be up to her to find the money. And they definitely pursue. My friend had a similar-ish situation and she was billed for over £75,000. Obviously they had to sell the property to service the debt.

In an ideal world it would be best up you and your sister could work together. But even if you're past that stage, you really need to talk to see what she's thinking and if you can find some common ground.

@Alonglongway

My parents both have dementia and we sold their house to fund their care. My mum had always been the money manager and before she got very ill she asked me to take the house to avoid it being used in this way. I looked her in the eye and said yes and then did no such thing as I knew it was illegal. I just wanted to give her peace of mind. She would be heartbroken to think it's gone and she doesn't need any more sorrow now.

I'm just telling this story to make the point that your mum/her husband could have asked for this without understanding that it was already way too late.

I would be wary of paying the fees yourself as you may have difficulty reclaiming them. There are options to have the fees charged against the house, once it's clarified as your mum's asset. We had the nursing home take a charge against the house while we sold it. That was a bit cheaper than having the local authority do it and it was handled by the solicitor who managed the sale for us.

Bless you, that must have been so hard but you absolutely did the right thing. I have this awful feeling my MIL will try something like this. She's elderly but fit and well right now, and hates the "welfare state". Her DD lives with her and I would not be surprised at all if she had already signed over her house to her officially to avoid paying for care (she would have done this in a way that would ensured her other DCs and DGC were looked after, mind). DHs sister is really naive and would likely have been more than happy to go along with this. I've been asking DH for years now to talk to his DM about making sure she has a POA set up but he's avoided it so far as she'll just see it as him saying she's getting old and past it

Absolutely do not pay the fees. The council will make arrangements for your mother and reclaim costs from your sister as the third party beneficiary of the asset if necessary.

Absolutely do not lay the fees.

The council will sort it and they will take measures against your sister if the deem it appropriate.

Your Mum's house could be rented out to pay for your Mums care?

Have you spoken to your sister and asked her about the circumstances under which the house was signed over to her, and what legal advice she received?

Op - I think the only solution here will be for your sister to sell the house and use the money to pay the carehome fees. I’m guessing (depending on where in the UK you are) carehome fees will be around the £1000-1200 per week mark? Renting out the home probably isn’t an option as assuming it won’t command a £5000-6000 per month rental income, which (after expenses) is what it would need to generate.

@user1487194234

Thanks for all responses I am not interested in a share of the property I really want to know if the house will be sold to meet her care needs Her husband had POA She is not capable of doing a new POA

Sister applied for guardianship,she didn't tell me but I legally had to be advised
Social worker said it might be fraud

Does her husband live in the house ? If so I don't think it can be sold for care fees ? Did he own any of it?

Husband is dead

Do not pay the fees yourself. You will never get the money back. Unless of course you in a position to fork out £ 1500 per week for the next 2/3 years without missing the money. The LA will pay in the interim. Do not let them strong arm you into paying yourself.

There are two issues with the transfer.

1. Was it legal? Did your mother have capacity at the time the transfer was made? Was it properly drawn up? Witnessed? Did your sister pay any stamp duty due?

1. Did the transfer constitute deliberate deprivation of assets and an attempt to avoid paying care home fees?

If the latter - and it sounds as if this was the case - the LA will still be able to seize the property to pay for your mother’s care. Factors to look at would be whether your mother continued to live at the property after the transfer, whether she paid market rent to your sister. There may be some wriggle room if your sister is over 60, financially dependent on your mother and has been living with her for some time. But even in this case the LA can still put a charge on the property so they get their money when your sister dies or moves out.

@user1487194234

Husband is dead

Sorry misread the POA.

Are SS refusing to place her in a home until the matter is resolved? Have you spoken to the discharge coordinator on the hospital ward? Have you asked about continuing healthcare (CHC) funding?

SS should not be using this as a reason not to place your mum in a home, you may need the discharge coordinator to remind them of this.

I thought the rules had changed and the medical needs are covered by NHS and only care needs by the patient - therefore only liable for part not full weekly care home fees?

I think will be classed as deprecation of assets and they will put a charge on house to pay for her care. What ever is left when your mum passes will go to your sister. Unless you sort it out now legally, and that will come at a cost. Have you asked your sister why she did this? She may have thought it would mean the house could not be touched for care costs but that’s not the case. There are strict limits on what can be gifted by older people anyway

@user1487194234 A useful resource is the Carers UK website, particularly the information about being discharged from hospital.
Age UK also has excellent information.

DO NOT offer or even mention paying the fees.
There are processes & protocols about eligibility & liability for residential fees, & these things take time to put in place. If you leap ahead (understandably because this is your mum & you want her safe & settle), you may incur a set of financial obligations that you should not have.

Carers UK

Carers UK Coming out of hospital

Age UK

@RandomMess

I thought the rules had changed and the medical needs are covered by NHS and only care needs by the patient - therefore only liable for part not full weekly care home fees?

If a person is eligible for continuing healthcare funding then the NHS would cover the cost of being in a nursing home. But the threshold is very high and as a person with dementia’s needs will fluctuate, it’s not guaranteed to last the length of time OP’s mother would need care. A person might qualify for funded nursing care, in which some of the cost of meeting a person’s health needs in residential care will be met by the NHS but other costs will need to be met by the resident, their family or the council depending on their level of income/assets/savings.

I thought the rules had changed and the medical needs are covered by NHS and only care needs by the patient - therefore only liable for part not full weekly care home fees?

It is very difficult to get NHS continuing care funding for elderly people in care homes. It is usually only possible if admission follows eg a stroke, a road traffic accident or cancer treatment. Elderly people who are frail, suffering from dementia etc do not qualify. And even when some nursing care elements (dressing, incontinence etc) are paid from public funds that usually does not amount to more than a couple of hundred pounds a week. The “residential care” element of the care charge is still usually over £1000. There is to be an increase in NI contributions to help fund adult social care but those funds will be diverted to the NHS in the first instance and will only go in to social care after ? 2025. But even then they will just keep pace with the increase in demand. It will not mean self funders paying less.

At the moment most elderly care home residents are self funders as most people of that generation own their own homes. And self funders subsidise LA residents (who often pay only 50%-75% of the self funder charge) I cannot imagine what the government will do in 50 years time when generation rent move into care.