Can we take their crap off of our roof?!

[JohnnyMarr]

As the title outlines really...

My elderly mum is endeavouring to sell a garage. She's had a fair bit of interest, but we're experiencing a bit of an issue in that the garage (which is in a block, if this makes a difference) has a flat roof and the people living in the flat adjacent to it have taken it upon themselves to turn said roof into some kind of patio garden area and have installed garden furniture, a washing line, a barbecue and various other miscellaneous paraphernalia!

The title deeds make it perfectly clear that they don't have any legal right to do this, yet despite multiple (perfectly civil) conversations and subsequent written requests to either A) remove the aforementioned crap or B) Discuss an arrangement whereby we come to some acceptable agreement regarding maintenance and repairs to the roof they have failed to engage with either alternative.

My mum's personal circumstances dictate that she really needs to sell the garage and she's becoming increasingly distraught by the current BBQ debacle - whilst I obviously appreciate that this isn't a long term solution, are we nevertheless within our rights to just stick a ladder up there and remove their stuff given their prolonged refusal to cooperate?

I'd also really appreciate any other advice. Solicitors are involved but taking forever and costing a fortune my mum really can't afford until the garage sells so stuck in a bit of a Catch 22

I think posters are being harsh

it's not the OP property

it belongs to an elderly parent who is distressed

both are worried about money and staying on the right side of the law

it's a really tough spot to be in

OP I hope it gets sorted asap.

Your solicitors sound pretty useless OP. Unless their sole purpose is to make money from writing endless letters at your expense why wouldn't their first letter say You must cease using the roof and remove all belongings by x date or we will dispose of them and secure the roof space then bill you for any expenses incurred. Or other agreed action plan.

Btw I don't think the items on the roof are the biggest issue - it's the door they've put in. I would seriously be reconsidering purchasing the property and garage based on that (I wonder if a surveyor would pick it up?)

Sorry - just re read and realised it's only the garage being sold. In which case I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole. Suggest (as other PPs) building control would be the best route.

Send them a letter saying they have 7 days to remove their stuff from your property otherwise you will assume it’s been abandoned and remove it yourself. Then remove the stuff and paint the roof with anti vandal paint.

The most important thing however is to contact the planning department at the council and tell the enforcement officer that someone has installed a door to illegally access your property. They will come out to investigate and hopefully tell them they must remove the door.

@Theunamedcat

Have you spoke to the police about it? Maybe carefully remove it and put anti vandal paint up (if that's still legal)

It's nothing to do with the police. It's civil matter.

I'd recommend contacting Citizens Advice too. They often have former solicitors volunteering for them so would be able to tell you how to construct a legal letter.
Citizens Advice helped us out with some CF landlords years ago when all of our previous phone calls and letters had gone unnoticed.
Give your borough council planning department a call too.

Anti vandal paint is awful stuff - you get black oily stuff on your fingers which is hard to wash off.
But spread on a roof you could just chuck a tarpaulin over it and it's then failed as a deterrent.

They are CF for sure. I agree that contacting the council about the patio doors could be a good way forward. Surely they cannot have got permission for them?

Offer to sell them the garage?

@JuneOsborne that’s exactly what I was going to say!

I think your solicitor needs a push as well. This is a serious h&s issue . Who would be liable if they fell through the roof? If your mum has house insurance give them a call pronto .I agree she should have legal cover , it’s usually standard, and they will probably write a letter to the offenders on her behalf.

Put one of these up if you haven’t already. You can get them customised quite cheaply, to say this roof is not stable.

Yes, although they're raging CFs, I think it might be most prudent to bite your tongue and not to make a big thing of that, but focus purely on the safety aspect. It's not a load-bearing roof, it could collapse with excessive weight on it, both endangering the safety/lives of those on there and the integrity of the building and contents of the garage.

I rather think it would be one in their eye if you deliberately ignored their CFery (and thus deprive them of the chance to hurl 'justifications' such as 'what does it matter to you?', 'you've never complained before', 'why did you not say anything when you saw our door being installed?' etc.) and frame it as purely a safety matter.

I can see how railings might potentially require planning permission (although it would be interesting if somebody official picked up on those but not on the CF's patio door), but surely you're allowed to strengthen/repair the roof - necessary because of this CF use - which I would have thought would quite legitimately include installing battens/joists/sleepers over the top; and then any subsequent blocking of an illegally-installed trespass-enabling door that this causes is just tough cheese one of those things.

If they were to complain about your repairing, strengthening and making safe your roof stopping them from illegally and dangerously using it, it would surely be the equivalent of complaining to the authorities that shops have started using security tags and thus taken away your ability to steal their goods!

I agree that the best solution all round would be for them to buy the garage, but CFs of this magnitude tend not to want to find solutions that cost them significant money, if they can get away with somebody else subbing them. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they (fruitlessly) seek compensation from you for their door, as it's 'your fault' that they can no longer use it to trespass; people like this really do have no shame at all.

Council planning department is your best bet, they won't have permission for the doors

I think you should offer it to them for purchase at the market price. They obviously use it and therefore could continue to use it and own a garage.

Failing this, do you know anyone who could go up, move the offending items onto their side (or along to another roof) or completely remove the items and paint anti vandal paint onto the roof?

They can hardly object as it's not their property.

It's shocking that they have installed patio door to enjoy what is your property! They have adopted this roof as theirs. I'd not bother with more lengthy solicitors letters.

I'd do a final letter yourselves and cc in the solicitors. Stating you legally own it, they can purchase it as it is for £Xxx.
Or that essential work will be commencing week beginning X . I wouldn't give an exact date as it gives room for confrontation.

Then get a chap to climb up, move the bbq along to the next roof so it doesn't get stolen and paint the surface with sticky anti vandal paint. I'd also get a double layer strip of anti theft spikes to put along outside the patio window and probably centrally to stop them covering the paint and carrying on using the space.

It's your property, I can't see them going down a legal route because you moved their stuff. They know they are cheeky but until you do something they won't change.

Also report them to Building control for the patio door. If it's been put in properly they can do this legally. You don't need to own the space it opens onto. But usually the space would need to be railed for safety so I doubt building control were involved.

I don't think planning will be too concerned. But building control get very twitchy about this type of thing due to safety.

[quote chesirecat99]Not a lawyer but I have had to do this with items left in communal areas. This is the correct legal process for what you have to do but I would get your own legal advice too:

www.property118.com/when-you-need-a-torts-notice/[/quote]
This is good advice.

Does your mother have legal cover on her insurance? If yes, she needs to contact them asap.

She also needs to contact Planning and Building Control at the local council. Those patio doors aren't going to be legal and planning enforcement should force them to get the original window or wall reinstated.

Check the council's website to see if they applied for planning permission - they won't have done, but check anyway.

Before doing anything else I’d definitely offer them the option of buying then garage - they might be willing to buy it rather than lose the space! Would be a win-win scenario and less stress for your mum.

When you gave them notice to remove the stuff by 31st October, what consequences, if any, did you warn them of if they failed to do so? If you haven't told them that their stuff will be removed, you do need to give them that specific warning.

Council planning department is your best bet, they won't have permission for the doors

Go and make enquiries with them in a much-hated MN-style 'reverse'!

"We have a flat roof on top of our garage - it isn't load-bearing and there's no safety rail, but we'd still like to use it to store unsecured heavy items that could easily blow away and fall on people passing by and host parties, at which children could be present - and where anybody could fall through the roof and end up seriously injured or even dead. I just wanted to run it by you and check with you that this is all fine and you'd have no issues at all with our doing this? What?!?! This WOULD be a problem?!?! Well, these people are doing it at X address, [show photos/video evidence] so now you've been informed and confirmed that it most definitely isn't allowed, I'll expect you to work with the relevant authorities to stop them - as, if you didn't now act, you could potentially be held partially liable!"

I would have roofers in ASAP to.put a slated roof up. They won't be able to use it.

Slanted, high pitch roof. So no-one can walk on it.

Pitch roof conversion is a very good idea. It's not especially cheap, but it would add value to it, when it comes to selling. Depending on what the buyer would want to use it for, you could even use the extra height to put a small mezzanine level in - make extra storage space for the owner to use and not CFs!

I think you need planning permission, but councils are generally keen on pitched roofs, as they're better for drainage and usually look nicer.

Push it all off the roof. Wind must have done it.

The garage is in a block, you wouldnt just be able to make one of them pitched, what about the drainage and guttering for all the others. I would check the Lease about the patio doors too it wont have been allowed.