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Legal matters

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Proving libel (evidence)

19 replies

Dataretrieval · 26/10/2021 16:16

I am aware that libellous and defamatory emails have been sent about me, by a certain individual, to their (not mine) place of work.

I have already applied for an SAR but assume this will be returned heavily redacted. Can anyone confirm how I can request for full disclosure?

Many thanks

OP posts:
Strangevipers · 26/10/2021 16:28

Does it matter if things have been said about you to that persons work not your work place.

Has this information been passed to your work place ?

Strangevipers · 26/10/2021 16:29

Also how do you know ? Is your source reliable ?

Strangevipers · 26/10/2021 16:30

Is the information true ?

MajorCarolDanvers · 26/10/2021 16:32

In a SAR they redact other people's personal info. Not yours. If something is held on you it will be disclosed.

WithMyEncyclopedia · 26/10/2021 16:38

Has it been published i.e. available for the public or a large group of people to read?
It's not libel if not.

Dataretrieval · 26/10/2021 16:44

Thanks all.

I know many people that do work there so feel my reputation damaged.

Very confident is true.

Re SAR, my knowledge is looted so thank you. what would be redacted in this sentence:

Jill called Jane a big fat meanie who goes around kissing frogs.

Emailed/sent to a large number of people.

OP posts:
Dataretrieval · 26/10/2021 17:20

Is there any chance I am able to ask for full copies of emails? Under anything other legal position that SAR?

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 26/10/2021 17:37

@WithMyEncyclopedia

Has it been published i.e. available for the public or a large group of people to read? It's not libel if not.
This is wrong. "Published" in libel law means it is communicated to a third person. It is not necessary for it to be available to the public or a large group of people.
prh47bridge · 26/10/2021 18:00

@Dataretrieval

Thanks all.

I know many people that do work there so feel my reputation damaged.

Very confident is true.

Re SAR, my knowledge is looted so thank you. what would be redacted in this sentence:

Jill called Jane a big fat meanie who goes around kissing frogs.

Emailed/sent to a large number of people.

Feeling your reputation has been damaged is not enough. To win a libel case you would have to show that it has caused or is likely to cause serious harm to your reputation.

Libel claims are expensive. If you win, the individual concerned will be ordered to pay your costs but that won't help you if they can't afford it. You could end up substantially out of pocket.

If you want to go down this route you need proper legal advice.

Interrobanger · 26/10/2021 18:04

To have a libel claim you have to show material loss or proof that the libel has caused you to be ‘avoided or shunned’. So, you lost your job or you were kicked out of your exclusive members’ club.

People just spreading rumours about you isn’t enough for a libel claim if nothing materially detrimental happens to you as a result.

I suppose you could send a cease and desist letter and scare them a bit.

prh47bridge · 26/10/2021 19:12

@Interrobanger

To have a libel claim you have to show material loss or proof that the libel has caused you to be ‘avoided or shunned’. So, you lost your job or you were kicked out of your exclusive members’ club.

People just spreading rumours about you isn’t enough for a libel claim if nothing materially detrimental happens to you as a result.

I suppose you could send a cease and desist letter and scare them a bit.

Another misstatement of the law.

Whilst being avoided or shunned as the result of a statement shows that the statement is defamatory, a statement is also defamatory if it tends to expose the subject to hatred, ridicule or contempt, or lowers the subject in the estimation of right thinking people.

The fundamental question is whether the statements have caused serious harm to the OP's reputation. If they have, she has a case. That doesn't necessarily mean it would be wise to take legal action, however.

Interrobanger · 26/10/2021 19:20

The fundamental question is whether the statements have caused serious harm to the OP's reputation. If they have, she has a case

That’s what I said? She has to show a loss. Otherwise everyone could sue anyone who talks shit about them.

Dataretrieval · 26/10/2021 20:07

Thanks all, has been really helpful thus far and lots to build on.

Can I ask is it normal for libel/ harassment claims to go hand in hand? Thank you

OP posts:
Interrobanger · 26/10/2021 20:27

No, harassment is a criminal offence. Libel is handled in the civil courts.

Dataretrieval · 27/10/2021 02:56

Thank you . So I’d be better to raise a claim for harassment it sounds? As the emails were sent with harmful intent (knowing it would get back to me)

Can I still ask for full and interacted copies?

Thanks all

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 27/10/2021 07:28

Harassment is actually both a civil and a criminal matter. However, it is not normal for libel and harassment claims to go hand in hand.

You can go to the police who may take criminal action, or you can start a civil case. Regardless of whether it is a criminal or civil case, you would need to show that there have been at least two incidents and these have caused you distress or alarm. The courts will look at whether a reasonable person would think the behaviour is harassment.

You really need to take proper legal advice rather than asking anonymous posters on an internet forum.

User527294627 · 29/10/2021 22:49

@WithMyEncyclopedia

Has it been published i.e. available for the public or a large group of people to read? It's not libel if not.
Where do people come with bollocks like this, and why do they spout it so confidently?
WigsNGowns · 31/10/2021 20:59

@Interrobanger

The fundamental question is whether the statements have caused serious harm to the OP's reputation. If they have, she has a case

That’s what I said? She has to show a loss. Otherwise everyone could sue anyone who talks shit about them.

The problem with paraphrasing 'serious harm' to reputation as 'loss' is that it isn't accurate. Most lay people would understand loss to mean financial loss - which is not necessary to show for an individual (as distince from a profit trading body).

Serious harm to reputation CAN be shown by financial loss in some cases but actual loss in a financial sense isn't necessary. What you need to show is serious harm to reputation which can be contextual in nuanced cases.

Eg. accusing someone of murder will in most cases qualify as serious harm but it may not do - if it was only published to ( in the sense of read by or disclosed to) one person who didn't believe it. There is no real harm because only one person read it and they didn't believe it anyway. On the other hand, sending an email round the whole of your parents year group saying that you can't be trusted to look after children because you are a drunk (Whilst less serious than an allegation of murder) may cause more damage to your reputation day to day than the first example.

@Dataretrieval starting with an SAR is a good starting point. The redactions will probably be the names/personal data (email addresss/phone numbers) of people mentioned other than you.

Obviously you found out about this some way - so another way of trying to get an copy of it is to approach the person/people who told you about it and ask if they will give you a copy.

How do you know about this email? What exactly do you know? And have you got corroboration? (One person told you alone or more than one independently).

If you have no joy with either the SAR or asking those who you think received it for a copy, in some circumstances you can apply to the court for pre-action disclosure but in libel cases this is very problematic. 'Fishing' for possible defamation is not really permitted so you'd need to show (by witnesses ideally giving statements) that you had been defamed, you knew it but you couldn't get a copy. If you need to make this sort of application, you would need to see a lawyer to advise you about whether it would be possible in your case.

No, harassment is a criminal offence. Libel is handled in the civil courts.

This is misleading. Harassment is both criminal and civil. You can bring a private harassment claim against someone harassing you.

It does sometimes happen that you have both a harassment claim together with a libel claim but usually if there is also a harassment claim, you may not need a libel claim. This can be a tactical question sometimes driven by costs issues. It depends what the biggest problem is - whether it is the harassment (repeated actions disrupting your life) or if it is the libel (a statement made about you that has seriously damaged your reputation and that you want to be made absolutely clear publicly that is not true) and whether your key objective is to get money or to get an injunction (order stopping it).

For harassment you need two or more harassing actions that constitute a course of conduct. One email is unlikely to be enough as it would count as one action. I suppose it could be if the same thing was sent sequentially and repeatedly - but you'd expect one email to be sent to everyone in one go.

The other thing to remember is that generally the limitation period for a libel claim is 1 year from the date of publication. This means that in most cases (unless there are exceptional circumstances governed by a statute) you need to issue a legal claim before a year has gone by from the date the libel was published (in the sense as indicated above - ie. disclosed to others).

All of the above comes with a chunky caveat that as always, you can never get proper legal advice on an anonymous forum because it is always fact dependent. Best advice is to take everything you read here with a healthy dose of salt and a skeptical eye and get formal paid for legal advice.

Flowers500 · 01/11/2021 20:01

Unless this has led to quite serious consequences for you I would seriously consider whether there is any point even going ahead with this. Are you looking for an apology and promise it will never happen again (in which case go for it, spend a few hundred on some legal letters) or are you thinking you have a case for damages? Unless you can link this to any major outcome I think it's unlikely to be worth your time

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