Coming off furlough, not enough hours to work

[Hullabaloo9]

I work at a small hotel. All staff have been on furlough since March 2020. Amazingly, things have picked up this week and our boss needs staff to manage a huge booking so is looking to bring us off furlough.

Pre furlough we all worked on a basis of completing the work that needed doing. There wasn't fixed hours but we reliably worked between 16 and 35 hours a week. We were put on furlough for 16 hrs.

If there is not 16 hrs a week work for us when we return what rights do we have? Does our boss have to find enough work for us? Can he bring us back on hugely reduced hours because we had no fixed contract?

It depends what your contract says. How many hours are you guaranteed?

If you return to work then you’re entitled to be laid for whatever minimum is in your contract - but they don’t necessarily need to actually find you enough work to do in that time…

Thanks for replying. We don't actually have a contract as such. Its housekeeping so we just used to work until the rooms were done. Although there was never contracted hours laid out we always worked at least 16, usually much more.

Does the casual nature of employment mean that we have no right to expect similar hours to before furlough? Can he say "there's 2 hrs work this week" and we have to suck it up?

If it's an informal zero hours contract then your only option is to turn the work down, but they don't have to keep you on furlough if you do.

From the staff point of view it seems like it would be preferable for them to bring only a few back doing 16+ hours and keep the rest on furlough but I guess that could well not be practical, for instance of you're all needed at once.

Are you effectively on a zero hours contract? As I understand it furlough for people without fixed hours is based on how much you were paid in the tax year before covid so are you sure that you've been paid properly?

To be honest I'm not sure of bring paid properly. I saw no rise in furlough when min wage went up in April.

I was under the impression that having 10 yrs of pay slips saying I had worked so many hours was somewhat like being contracted. I don't know why I thought that to be honest. I thought that post furlough he would have to either negotiate with us or provide similar hours. If he can't then our jobs are not sustainable.

Thanks again to all who have replied. I am generally clueless but I don't want to be shafted. He clearly wants us to leave without having to pay redundancy

Why don't you speak to your boss and ask what the planned hours are?

You've been on furlough for over a year, which will have cost your boas money, and now you're moaning without having any idea of the plan.

There's plenty of jobs available in hospitality atm.

Gosh, I don't want to stay on furlough! I've hated it. 80% of 16 hrs at nmw isn't much to live on! I want to go back desperately, even at reduced hours but I can't live on what he is hinting at, 1 days work shared by 3 per week.

Also he has put the property on the market and it would never sell as a going concern as its been going downhill for years.

I do not want yo walk away without my 10+ yrs redundancy, which is clearly on the horizon.

I wouldn't be holding out for a redundancy payment, you're not going to get a golden handshake. I think it's about 1 weeks wage for every year you've been there. And you don't even have any contracted hour apparently. 🤷‍♀️

Go onto the gov website and calculate your redundancy pay.

@Hullabaloo9

To be honest I'm not sure of bring paid properly. I saw no rise in furlough when min wage went up in April.

I was under the impression that having 10 yrs of pay slips saying I had worked so many hours was somewhat like being contracted. I don't know why I thought that to be honest. I thought that post furlough he would have to either negotiate with us or provide similar hours. If he can't then our jobs are not sustainable.

Thanks again to all who have replied. I am generally clueless but I don't want to be shafted. He clearly wants us to leave without having to pay redundancy

I can maybe help here:

Employees on furlough are not subject to the minimum wage increase as furlough is calculated on the rate of pay and average hours worked calculated as at February 2020. When employees start back working they must be paid the new minimum wage for any hours worked. If someone is flexi furloughed - that is they are working some hours and furloughed for the rest of their hours then they will see two rates of pay (I.e. worked hours at new minimum wage and furloughed hours at old minimum wage)

If you are on a zero hours contract then you are not guaranteed a minimum number of hours, however your employer can choose to put you on flexi furlough so that you are paid for the hours you work and furlough for the difference in hours between hours worked and your average hours as calculated for furlough. Remember though that furlough comes at a cost for employers (Employers NI, pension contributions and holiday pay accrual) plus from this month they can only claim 70% from the government so they are liable to pay the 10% themselves. Some employers may just not be able to afford this.
I think it's a dilemma that many employers will face over the next couple of month until furlough ends and a lot of employees may find themselves short.
I hope things pick up and your hours increase soon.

Based on the info you've given you're not likely to get much more than 2k redundancy so the security of having a new job would be preferable, imo. I appreciate that might not seem fair but employment law rarely is.

@Hullabaloo9

Gosh, I don't want to stay on furlough! I've hated it. 80% of 16 hrs at nmw isn't much to live on! I want to go back desperately, even at reduced hours but I can't live on what he is hinting at, 1 days work shared by 3 per week.

Also he has put the property on the market and it would never sell as a going concern as its been going downhill for years.

I do not want yo walk away without my 10+ yrs redundancy, which is clearly on the horizon.

Sorry didn't see this part before I answered. Sounds like you are much better out of there but maybe worth asking about flexible furlough in the short term.

Thanks everyone. I know that I will only get a couple of grand redundancy but on a low income that would potentially stop me from getting into debt while I find another job and potentially switch to monthly pay. I have no savings anymore.

I will obviously take the reduced hours, as long as its bare subsistence level for me.

I just wanted to know if we have any rights before Monday when things will have to be resolved one way or another. I would rather enter the discussion informed. You have cleared this up for me. Thanks

How will you get any redundancy if you don't have a contract?

And if you do have one and it's zero hours, he doesn't even have to make you redundant. He could just stop giving you hours till you get desperate and leave.

I know this makes me sound stupid but what is the definition of a zero hours contract? We have never signed a contract at all and when I was employed there was a verbal agreement that I would work at least 20 hrs a week. I had a signed, headed letter stating this which I had to take to DWP.

There was no mention of Zero hours contract.

If you've never signed a contract then you're not on one, zero hours or not.

A zero hours contract is when you have a signed contract of employment with no minimum hours. Quite common in supermarkets (or used to be when I worked there) as it means if there's not enough work the employer doesn't have to worry, they just don't give you shifts that week.

But you have no contract which means you're not entitled to anything. No sick pay, no redundancy, no notice period if they shut. You also have no rights and it's unlikely they've been paying you properly. For example they should be paying you via a scheme like PAYE, paying into your pension and your national insurance contributions so you get a state pension.

But equally, i don't know how you've been furloughed without a contract as it's proof to the gov that you're employed. Otherwise they could just claim for anyone!

I don't know the situation where you are, but most areas of the UK have a massive shortfall of hospitality staff, admittedly I live in a tourist area but I don't know of a single hotel that has a full complement of staff and as such if I needed a job right now I could probably without exaggeration have a housekeeping job within 10 minutes, starting today. Your employer sounds pretty rubbish, if I were you I'd have a look round for somewhere else that could guarantee my hours and give me a contact and pay me above minimum wage.

Hmmm this thread has opened more questions than it has answered for me.

I am payed through PAYE. I pay national insurance contributions and am enrolled in the govt pension scheme to which my boss contributes. In 2016 I had a years SMP through this employer.

I have definitely never signed an actual contract though. Nobody here has.

I'm very confused 😕

Also, when furlough was going to end in November we were all given a letter warning us that our jobs were at risk of redundancy. All very official.

OP please please please seek advice from a reputable organisation like Citizens Advice or ACAS. It is absolutely not the case in the UK that if you haven't signed a contract you have no rights. The fact that someone here is saying that is exactly why legal advice from strangers on the internet should only ever be a starting point.

In the UK, if there is no written contract of employment you still have statutory rights (for example to redundancy pay) and there may also be implied terms (such as your hours of work). But don't take my word for it - talk to someone who will face some consequences if they advise you wrong.

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/rights-at-work/basic-rights-and-contracts/contracts-of-employment/

@raspberrymuffin thank you. I will

Bit late back here OP, sorry.

If you don’t have a written contract it doesn’t matter - you still have an implied contract of employment. It also sounds like one of the terms to be implied is a minimum 16 hour working week - both parties are in agreement on that, as that is what you say you worked, and it’s what your employer applied for in relation to the furlough payments.

You cannot be on a zero hours contract unless it’s in writing.

The difficulty will come if they just refuse to offer you any work and claim you’re on a ZHC, because your choice in that situation would be to try and bring a claim for unlawful deduction from wages or breach of contract based on the implied term, which is never guaranteed. However I do think you have a decent argument here - how would the employer explain their decision to claim 16 hours furlough pay otherwise?

I suspect if you asked for a written contract, it would come back as a zero hours contract so that’s probably not the answer sadly. But if you aren’t provided with any work or pay, or less than 16 hours, I’d get legal advice.

@MrsPinkCock thank you so much. This is exactly the information I needed and what I had thought to be correct.

@myfuckingfreezer

If you've never signed a contract then you're not on one, zero hours or not.

A zero hours contract is when you have a signed contract of employment with no minimum hours. Quite common in supermarkets (or used to be when I worked there) as it means if there's not enough work the employer doesn't have to worry, they just don't give you shifts that week.

But you have no contract which means you're not entitled to anything. No sick pay, no redundancy, no notice period if they shut. You also have no rights and it's unlikely they've been paying you properly. For example they should be paying you via a scheme like PAYE, paying into your pension and your national insurance contributions so you get a state pension.

But equally, i don't know how you've been furloughed without a contract as it's proof to the gov that you're employed. Otherwise they could just claim for anyone!

Being entitled to furlough and having a contract have got nothing to do with each other. The identifier for being furloughed was having been on the payroll and reported to hMRC before the cut off date. They don't care about your employment contract as long as they're getting the right amount of tax and national insurance and the fact that the OP has had furlough means that she has been paid on a proper payroll with proper deductions

With respect your post is all wrong, I hope you aren't employed in a role that needs that kind of knowledge

Why don't you get another job for 16 hours a week on top of this one? If you don't have a contract then there's no condition of employment saying you can't work elsewhere in addition to this job. That way you'll have work and pay but still have your foot in the door at the old place for a redundancy payment.

Hanging around for weeks with no work just for redundancy pay is pointless as you'll only get a bit more back that what you've lost through not working.