Probate.

[Noidea2114]

What happens in probate.
DAunt has suddenly passed away on Friday (58) No children.
She has lots of different accounts. We have found her will. We don't have POA.
In we I mean myself and my male cousin. Looking at her savings accounts we have noticed that a lot of money went out in the last few months.
In total about £30k. I'm worried that we will have to pay inheritance tax even though we haven't been given the money.
We both are the only beneficiarys. Her whole estate will add up to about £275k.
We don't know what solicitor to appoint or can we do it ourselves.

@Geamhradh

We have just received grant of probate for a death last June. We've now been told that due to Covid (of course!) release of assets could take equally as long.

Solicitors? It’s nonsense, assets can be released as soon as probate’s granted. Often a house is sold before it’s granted and contracts are exchanged the following day.

@Blossomtoes

Probate is not a quick process, our solicitors reference to it as a Probate Year, as that is the average time that it takes to sort out a persons Estate and deal with their assets after they died

That’s because they make a meal of it to justify their extortionate fees. I applied for probate for both my parents’ estates. It took four months the first time and three the second.

Absolutely this. I have done probate myself for both parents, in laws and helped my SIL. It's really not difficult and there is lots of advice online. Solicitors drag it out endlessly. You haven't answered the question who are the executors? If she appointed a solicitor then you'll have no choice. If it's you then you can choose to DIY or pay a solicitor.

It sounds highly unlikely there would be IHT even with the unaccounted money.
Once you go through all the paperwork properly you'll probably find it.
For now ring all banks and tell them. They will freeze the money until probate though most will release sufficient money to pay funeral bills.
For the Inland revenue you have to give an estimate of the value of the estate before you get probate. It is an estimate so you don't gave to get exact valuation of everything, especially if it's below the IHT threshold.

@Geamhradh

If you look at the list published of grants of probate on the govt website you can see that over the last year many have taken a long time.

The time taken is usually by the solicitor. My mother died last year and I got probate within 2 months. That's because I was on the case all the time whereas solicitors are just very slow at everything.

@Blossomtoes, yes, it's all in the solicitor's hands.

I have been asked to send them my passport details so perhaps things are moving.

Who is named in her will as executor(s)?

Surely there's a code to show where all that money was going?

I just spotted that her husband only died in December. Could be possible that his estate has not yet been resolved?

I see you mentioned that your Aunt's husband died recently too. If all of his estate passed to your Aunt then I think her inheritance tax threshold doubles as she gets his allowance as well (he is deemed not to have used his if his estate passed to his spouse).

Freeze her accounts.

That’s because they make a meal of it to justify their extortionate fees.

No, it is because the executor needs to be sure that all assets have been located, all debts have been identified and settled, all beneficiaries have been identified and there are no claims against the estate. For that reason, beneficiaries cannot force the executor to distribute the estate until one year after the date of death (the "executor's year"). Distributing the estate more rapidly risks the executor being held personally liable if problems emerge later. For example, in 2014 the executors of Terence Guy had to pay over £14k to HMRC out of their own pockets when an additional tax liability emerged after they had distributed the estate.

You may be prepared to take that risk. A solicitor is unlikely to be willing to do so.

@prh47bridge

That’s because they make a meal of it to justify their extortionate fees.

No, it is because the executor needs to be sure that all assets have been located, all debts have been identified and settled, all beneficiaries have been identified and there are no claims against the estate. For that reason, beneficiaries cannot force the executor to distribute the estate until one year after the date of death (the "executor's year"). Distributing the estate more rapidly risks the executor being held personally liable if problems emerge later. For example, in 2014 the executors of Terence Guy had to pay over £14k to HMRC out of their own pockets when an additional tax liability emerged after they had distributed the estate.

You may be prepared to take that risk. A solicitor is unlikely to be willing to do so.

I agree. Unless it's a very small estate with no property to sort it without a solicitor would be madness.

How has she been withdrawing this money ? Cash ? Could she have spent it ?

I recently applied for probate for my dad's estate. It was just under IHT threshold, as my mum's allowance had passed over to him upon her death many years ago. It included a house and bank account.

The whole process seemed daunting at first, but it was actually really simple. The probate info line are really helpful. Once I'd completed the online forms I was expecting it to take at least 8 weeks, as the info line tells you not to check progress until after that time. It took 24 hours I hadn't even sent off his death certificate so I called to check it wasn't even a mistake. I was told no, they must have obtained that electronically and as mine was an "easy" application they just hurried it through.

With regards to his bank account, before I'd even applied for probate they contacted me to fill out a closure form, asking for the bank account which I wanted his money transferred to. I called them as thought it odd as I hadn't been granted probate, but they said as it was under 50k it didn't matter. Prior to that his bank account had been frozen but funeral costs can still be paid from it, you just need to upload the invoice to the bank.

Sorry for your loss

@Noidea2114

there is an unanswered question here.

^"DAunt has suddenly passed away on Friday (58) No children.
She has lots of different accounts. We have found her will."^

So you have the will. You have not said who is/are the named executor/s.

This is vital.

We are the executors and beneficiaries.
It's this missing money that we don't understand.
According to the ISA book it was withdrawn over the counter in 4 lots.£40k
Money from her current account was via the ATM. £30k since the end of December.
This started 2 weeks after her DH died
We have cleared out the food etc from the house and secured it.
It was difficult phoning some of her friends to inform them of her death.
Also we have brought home as much paperwork as we could find.
We are both off work tomorrow and Wednesday so will be contacting the bank and a solicitor.
Will be organising the funeral as well.
And searching the house for anymore information.
I have a list of her DD for utilities and will be sorting that out.

she withdrew cash, and has spent it, hidden it, or given it away.

I'd think quite likely given it to friends or relations that weren't in the will.

Possibly given to crooks or fraudsters, but how wil you ever know?

As you are executors, you can start by making a register of all the banks and investments you can find, with account number, name and address, latest balance, and writing to them all.

Whether you do the probate application yourself, or pay someone else, this will need to be done, and it will probably be you that has to find out the information even if you pay someone else to put it on a form.

Probate application can be easier than you think, especially if it is below the inheritance tax level (including the unused part of a spuise's allowance).

Beware of old froends and relatives coming out of the woodwork saying "she always promised me..." make a note of it and hand nothing over (yet)

For some reason they were always promised the best jewellery, or the valuable antique. Never the battered old family teapot or the hand-embroidered teatowel.

btw I was looking after the affairs of someone who died last year, and she had an usual amount of cash hidden away, and in a locked cashbox with the key concealed, in the expectation of becoming too ill to get to the bank or do her own shopping.

[quote Geamhradh]@Blossomtoes, yes, it's all in the solicitor's hands.

I have been asked to send them my passport details so perhaps things are moving.[/quote]
I’d be asking them why they’ve waited to so long to ask for them and why they need them now. I guess it’s money laundering but they could and should have asked right at the beginning.

@prh47bridge

That’s because they make a meal of it to justify their extortionate fees.

No, it is because the executor needs to be sure that all assets have been located, all debts have been identified and settled, all beneficiaries have been identified and there are no claims against the estate. For that reason, beneficiaries cannot force the executor to distribute the estate until one year after the date of death (the "executor's year"). Distributing the estate more rapidly risks the executor being held personally liable if problems emerge later. For example, in 2014 the executors of Terence Guy had to pay over £14k to HMRC out of their own pockets when an additional tax liability emerged after they had distributed the estate.

You may be prepared to take that risk. A solicitor is unlikely to be willing to do so.

Stop teaching your grandmother how to suck eggs! Having been the executor and administered two estates I know all that. And it doesn’t take a year - unless solicitors (aka con artists) are involved.

I know it is a mystery to you where the money has gone, and of course terrible if your aunt was scammed in some way, but honestly even if you found out where it has gone, the onus would be on you to prove that it was withdrawn and given to someone fraudulently, as even if you came across a note from your aunt saying 40k to Fred & Doris at No. 42 they could say she owned it to them or it was gifted.
It's gone.

@Blossomtoes accusing solicitors - who are officers of the Court - of being thieves ('con artists') is a really disgusting thing to do. We have to follow best practice and make sure things are done properly to protect the executors, who are our clients, from actions against them. Being thorough and precise might mean you don't get the money as quickly as you might like, but it also means that you don't (for example) face HMRC penalties for under payment of tax.

OP how were the payments made? If they were by cheque, you can ask the bank for copies of the cheques to see the payee. If by bank transfer, you may be able to get the bank to give you the name of the recipient account. Sometimes estate administration does have to be quite forensic. As executor, you have to follow due diligence but as long as you do that HMRC won't fine you.

Stop teaching your grandmother how to suck eggs! Having been the executor and administered two estates I know all that. And it doesn’t take a year - unless solicitors (aka con artists) are involved.

Then stop misrepresenting the facts. If you know all that, you know that you took a risk by distributing the estates you administered when you did and could have ended up personally liable for any subsequent claims made against the estate. You cannot expect a solicitor to take the same risk.

To give the most obvious example, potential claimants have six months from the grant of probate (NOT the date of death) to make a claim under the Inheritance (Provision for Family and Dependents) Act 1975. The Law Society recommends waiting a further 4 months to allow for the possibility that a claim was issued but not served within the time limit. That takes us to 10 months from the grant of probate, so close to one year from the date of death. You may have been confident that there would be no such claimants but, if one had emerged after you had distributed the estate, you would have had to meet the cost of defending the claim yourself and, if you lost, you would have been personally liable to meet the claim. You would not have had any legal right to reclaim the money from the beneficiaries.

Solicitors generally take the full year over administering the estate because they need to be sure they don't end up personally liable for anything, not, as you suggest, to justify their fees, extortionate or otherwise.

Lots of misinformation here. You don’t need probate to talk to the bank, but you do need to be an executor. Are you? You can evidence this with the will. Take the will and the death certificate into the bank and they will help you.
As pp said POA doesn’t exist for a dead person.

@FudgeSundae

Lots of misinformation here. You don’t need probate to talk to the bank, but you do need to be an executor. Are you? You can evidence this with the will. Take the will and the death certificate into the bank and they will help you. As pp said POA doesn’t exist for a dead person.

In my case I notified the bank of the death but without probate I couldn't do any more.