Beneficial interest in house. What counts as evidence?

[anamazingfind]

My BIL is contesting his late wife's will and needs evidence of beneficial interest in the family home.

Solicitor has asked for evidence of financial contribution to the fabric of the building, and he has around £90K he can show from his savings, plus 10 years worth of DIY, at which he is pretty good. Plastering, kitchen fitting etc.

His DW had everything in her name and would take money from the joint account, into which she paid very little, to pay credit cards etc. Over 10 years he alone paid into the joint account, from which all household bills were paid and which DW drew money from on a regular basis. She paid builders with this money cash for the building of a large extension. So essentially he paid for most things as she only worked part time on a low wage.

Would these payments of all the bills be relevant in this claim or just the fabric of the building payments?

@NoWordForFluffy I'd hate you to be my solicitor as judgemental opinions seem to be your forte.

I didn't realise I wasn't allowed to ask legal opinions on a legal matters site. I stand corrected.

Do you seriously think we don't speak to the solicitors? At a cost of £175 for the solicitor and over £300 an hour for the associate, we try to find the answers to the more minor questions on the internet, and keep the more serious matters for them.

Seriously though you start multiple threads to which you are given answers or do not appreciate that sometimes the question you ask needs further background information before a reasoned answer can be given. The more you are rude to people the less likely to want to help.

@SeasonFinale People like you do not want to help. They are simply determined to goad and make judgements based on minimal information and wild speculation. You also have no legal knowledge that is of interest to me. You and Fluffy were instrumental in my asking for the thread to be taken down and you will not do the same here. KFO.

I have never asked for a thread to be taken down. Indeed if you remember correctly I did give you some very good advice about how to deal with the bank and the builder but you choose to be rude to people when the advice is not what you want to hear. I am sorry that my legal knowledge is of no interest to you. Fortunately it has given me a good standard of living for a number of years.

People are asking questions so that they can inform you better. You refuse to answer the questions as irrelevant because you lack the legal knowledge to realise they are relevant. Now you accuse people of advising on minimal information and wild speculation.

You can't have it both ways. If people ask a question to be able to answer you properly either give the answer so they can do so. If you choose not to then please don't complain that they don't help or give an answer where they say "assuming xyz" has happened then this is the answer.

I suspect the previous thread may have been removed by mumsnet due to your unnecssary rudeness to other posters rather than by anyone requesting it be taken down because I am not sure MN would work on that basis.

Anyway good luck to your BIL in his case it does sound as though his wife's daughters have been manipulative but I suspect he won't perhaps get the help he requires (other than from his solicitor) if you are advocating for him.

You sounds incredibly invested considering the nu.ber of threads for something that affects your BIL rather than yourself.

In any case, I'm confused why you don't think my questions were very relevant in that the judge is likely to ask these same questions and the answer likely to influence determination of whether there was common intention or not.

@SeasonFinale I apologise for rudeness to you personally as you did indeed give the advice i needed.
However I disagree that it is necessary to give personal and full disclosure of details not relevant to the question I am asking. I did this previously after a barrage of questions and condemnation aimed at my BIL and myself, for seeking a perfectly reasonable legal remedy to the unfair situation he is in. I have twice asked for the threads to be removed, and I will not make the same mistake again, hence my refusal to disclose further private information.
I am not asking anyone to give us legal advice on the subject as a whole, only small specific areas. As you know every contact with a specialist solicitor is expensive therefore we are minimising calls where possible.

I have been rude only to people offering unwanted, judgemental, ignorant and incorrect advice, and I stand by that. The question I asked above stands alone, and has been answered in a way I would expect and without issue. A simple question. Do household bills count?

[quote anamazingfind]@SeasonFinale I apologise for rudeness to you personally as you did indeed give the advice i needed.
However I disagree that it is necessary to give personal and full disclosure of details not relevant to the question I am asking. I did this previously after a barrage of questions and condemnation aimed at my BIL and myself, for seeking a perfectly reasonable legal remedy to the unfair situation he is in. I have twice asked for the threads to be removed, and I will not make the same mistake again, hence my refusal to disclose further private information.
I am not asking anyone to give us legal advice on the subject as a whole, only small specific areas. As you know every contact with a specialist solicitor is expensive therefore we are minimising calls where possible.

I have been rude only to people offering unwanted, judgemental, ignorant and incorrect advice, and I stand by that. The question I asked above stands alone, and has been answered in a way I would expect and without issue. A simple question. Do household bills count?[/quote]
Surely your solicitor has already told your BIL this? If they haven’t, I’d be asking them for a refund!

No. They're life expenses I suspect. Cost of living

@IndecentFeminist

No. They're life expenses I suspect. Cost of living

Yes, I think they are just that, as she intended them to be paid by him, but all in her name. Accountant will have to look at the large sums she took out and where they went as she didn't pay into the account.

Paying into joint account for house hold bills will not prove beneficial interest and it is not relevant for your BIL purposes that he paid more into it. A joint account is just that money is for use by either party. The main point is you need to prove your BIL paid for improvements to the property which increased it value, a new kitchen bathroom wouldn’t be relevant as he had the benefit of that whilst living there but him paying solely for an extension. If as you say the money was made in cash to the builders from her accounts then unless you can match up the exact dates to builders receipts I can’t see how you can pursue it. It could also be proved/ shown as a gift from BIL to his late wife if he paid the monies into joint account which he then knew would be used for house improvements. I’m sorry but I think his solicitor his encouraging you both into expensive legal action when you don’t have proper legal basis to peruse it.

I’m sorry but I think his solicitor his encouraging you both into expensive legal action when you don’t have proper legal basis to peruse it
OP has been told this many times but doesn't want to hear it. States that she can't evidence transactions because he is not allowed in the house to retrieve said statements when any bank would provide that information.

Any bank would provide that info- not true The bank won’t provide the information it as they have the joint account statements not his wife’s sole accounts. They are not allowed that info as he is not executor. I did advise that on the other thread. Also I agree with other comments the solicitor should be leading this not asking randoms on mumsnet.

Got to say I'm very surprised that banks don't give out past statements to one half-holder of a joint account.

? It’s not the joint account they want access to they want copies of his late wife’s sole bank account.

Oh yes, sorry.

He wasn’t on the deeds and not in will. Assuming their was no mortgage, surely the contributions he was making were effectively in lieu of paying rent and being fair as he was living there.
Might well have some claim on this basis but the legal costs will be a lot and I assume the house has been left to kids as most mothers would do. Doesn’t specify circumstances of death or state of relationship.

It’s not the joint account they want access to they want copies of his late wife’s sole bank account
No, they wanted copies the joy t account, to show evidence of spend and transfer to her account.

Of course they can't gain access to her individual account and even if they had access to the house, taking them would be stealing.

@dontdisturbmenow

It’s not the joint account they want access to they want copies of his late wife’s sole bank account No, they wanted copies the joy t account, to show evidence of spend and transfer to her account.

Of course they can't gain access to her individual account and even if they had access to the house, taking them would be stealing.

We want access to the wife's sole accounts (copies of statements) to demonstrate where BILs money went and that it paid for major building works. His solicitor has written to the executors pointing out they cannot legally withhold evidence and documents (which they are) which affects the case so hopefully we will get them soon for the accountant.

The executors/beneficiaries/daughters have agreed to mediate informally next week after reading the letter of claim and looking at the evidence we have and (no doubt) spoken to a solicitor who has told them the will won't go through as it stands.

So basically we will win and he will have his home secured for life. Just as the expensive and expert solicitor advised. Their share, whatever it turns out to be, will be held in trust.

Happy with that.