Reconstructing Title deeds

[GenderApostate19]

DH recently inherited his Dad’s house, currently going through probate, we found out the house is unregistered shortly before fil died and he was too ill to sort it out.
He told us the deeds are with the bank and always have been -
mortgage paid off in 1997 with the Woolwich, Barclays took them over a few years ago.
Contacted Barclays anyway as he banked with them, asked about the deeds, gave them the old Woolwich account details and got a letter back saying that they can find no trace of deeds. I rang the bereavement team and asked if the search included the Woolwich archives but they couldn’t contact the person who did the search so left a message for Monday.
I even rang the Conveyancing solicitors who acted for PiL in 1971 ( we found 49 years worth of documents and bills in a wardrobe) to see if they had anything, they checked their strongroom and nothing, unsurprisingly.
There is nowhere else the deeds could be, I would have found evidence amongst all that paperwork.
Given that we have a huge amount of proof of ownership, is it likely that we will get ‘absolute’ title of the house? We are planning on using the Solicitor I contacted if we need to as she has experience of reconstructing deeds.
How long does the process generally take?
I know land charges searches have to be done too, our stupid Council can’t be done online!
How do we provide a full account for the loss of deeds when we can’t prove they were ever in storage with the Woolwich/Barclays.
I’ve even gone through bank statements from 1998-2010 to see if there was a yearly payment of £10 to the Woowich, there are odd cheques for £10 but obviously no payee.

We have no evidence of the location of the deeds since 1997 and the redemption statement.

We really want to get the house sold, both to clear our mortgage and to give DD £25k as a top up to her house deposit, her rental contract ends next April so they want to start looking in November/December.
I’m so stressed over it but glad we know so we can sort it, I just hate such uncertainty.
Obviously the deeds could turn up with Barclays but I need to be prepared.
I have a folder with proof of residence/ownership for almost every year from 1971. Surely that means proof beyond all doubt and the application will go through fairly easily?
Other than the overwheming proof, grant of probate, Mil/Fil’s death certs and wills, is there anything else that would be useful for our case?
It’s really keeping me awake at night, DH and SiL are still coming to terms with losing their Dad, so I’m carrying this alone really.

There’s very little information online as I imagine it’s such a rare thing these days.
We also potentially have a cash buyer but if it’s going to take months and months to sort out it may put them off.

Goodness. We are in exactly the same boat. Also Barclays, denying all knowledge of pre-registration deeds.

It seems that loads of original title deeds were destroyed by banks when everything went digital. Even when it's blindingly obvious about ownership, if the "computer says no" then your hands are tied.

It's a complete nightmare.

Most banks and lenders started sending out deeds to the owners some years ago, but presumably in your case, where the land is unregistered, they would not have done so until the mortgage was paid off.
The solicitors might not have the deeds but have they got the original files?
I don't know what the situation is now, but when I left the law about 10 years ago, the advice to solicitors then was that it NEVER safe to throw out purchase files.
I'd write to them asking them to search their records to locate the file, not just the deeds.
Also check with the Bank whether there is a safe deposit box,where the deeds might be deposited, and check correspondence - it may be that there is a record of the deeds having been deposited at the bank.
I think all your chasing needs to be done in writing - it seems that there is a whiff of negligence around this, and phone calls are not formal enough to get the those in charge pulling all strings to look for the documents.
I think your best hope is personal correspondence, which may at least detail events - eg a letter from the conveyancers in 1971 enclosing a purchase contract for signature.
In order to get Absolute title, I think you'll need to file affadavits giving as much detail as possible, and producing any evidence you can.
It's doable, but a long haul.

The lender typically releases the deeds once the mortgage has been discharged. They held them by way of security so the property couldn’t be sold without them.

If guy can gather enough evidence that the property belonged to your FIL to satisfy the land reg, they’ll register it with absolute title. Your buyer will ask for a missing title deeds indemnity policy as they won’t know what rights the property benefits from or is burdened with.

If you can satisfy the land reg you’ll need to apply for possessory title.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/first-registration-of-title-where-deeds-have-been-lost-or-destroyed/practice-guide-2-first-registration-of-title-if-deeds-are-lost-or-destroyed

@DeeplyMovingExperience banks did not destroy title deeds, the land registry did when registration became compulsory. They employed a team to scan everything on and destroyed deeds in their possession whilst doing so.

On a personal level, I find it rather sad that banks have destroyed title deeds. Nowadays, all you get from the Land Registry is confirmation of ownership, ie who holds the legal title, whereas title deeds documented all the previous owners of the land, and in some cases were very old.

Banks did destroy title deeds, there are fora full of angry people who would have loved their paper deeds.
Mine are fascinating, even though my house was only built in 1969, there are land deeds going back to 1832 when it was farmland. Unfortunately, even though Fil’s garden backs on to our street , his row of houses isn’t part of ‘our’ building plot, they were built a few years earlier by different builders, who went out of business years ago - fil’s ndn has been there since the houses were built.
The Solicitor told me that records are only kept for 7 years. 49 years is asking a bit much.
I assume that a land charges search will show up from the Conveyancing in 1971?

They would have only destroyed deeds that were dematerialised - ie the land reg held electronically.

@milveycrohn again, these should be held electronically by the land reg where the contents are not set out in the register. You can also access the first registration docs now on land reg online.

Solicitors files are only kept for 7 years.

I’ve had another thought - if the Woolwich mortgage was left with £1 outstanding, which it states in the 1997 redemption statement, would there / should there be a record of that?

Yes. They should be able to find the account as the mortgage wasn’t discharged.

I’ve written a letter to Barclays, which I will send if they don’t come up with the deeds, so I have a paper trail.
In their letter they only mention ‘safe custody’ items, which is a service they used to provide of an envelope you could get in branch and pay a fee for safekeeping, there is no evidence of that in the bank statements.

I don't know if it's a comfort to you or not, but this situation is not as unusual as you might think. I can't guarantee what class of title you'd get as it would very heavily depend on the quality of evidence, but it could go either way on absolute or possessory. Possessory isn't the end of the world, and you can get indemnity when selling the house to cover any risks associated with it.

You can do it yourself, but I'd advise getting a solicitor and lodging for First Registration with the Land Registry. It's not always a long process and if you manage to get a sale, you can always get your solicitor to ask for the case to be expedited.

Of course, if you do manage to get any docs from the bank, even if all they can give you are copies, it obviously helps speed up the process even more.

I would hope that original conveyancing docs, mortgage redemption statement and 49 years worth of bills would be more than enough to prove ownership beyond all reasonable doubt.
Not to mention a sworn statement from his next door neighbour to the effect that they’d lived there all that time.
It’s just a hassle we could well do without.

Are they definitely not with the solicitor that held the will? I only say as a client of mine was adamant that a lender had misplaced the deeds (again, unregistered property) but they were with the solicitor holding the will. It was missed as the will and the deeds were kept in separate stores.

We held his will. If he’d had dealings with any solicitors, we’d have known it.
Barclays have admitted they haven’t checked the Woolwich archives so fingers crossed.

Barclays finally found the Deeds so panic over 🤗

Good news!

Good news indeed.
We have a very interested potential cash buyer so just waiting for grant of probate.