Advice please - being asked to repay pension

[RiftGibbon]

I shall try to keep this simple by listing facts but I'd like some suggestions as to how to handle this.

I had joint POA for a relative.

Relative was drawing a private pension (spouse had a company pension and it then went to relative when their spouse died).

When relative died (last Sept), I informed everyone; bank, pension co., bills, etc.
I had a letter from pension co. saying sorry to hear, send death cert. and we will let you know if anything outstanding. That was in October.

I have just had a letter from them asking for a repayment of some £500.
I don't have £500
I had £500 the best part of a year ago when relative died and I was dealing with apportioning their assets.

I left money in relatives account for three months after their death to allow for any over/under payments that were outstanding, but then assets were divided up according to stipulations of the will.

It seems to me to be extremely unreasonable on behalf of the pension co to leave it so long. They were informed of the death within a week. Is there anything I can do to say 'on your bike', legally? Can they actually chase me for this? Given that it has taken them 10 months to decide they are owed money.

It seems to me to be extremely unreasonable on behalf of the pension co to leave it so long. They were informed of the death within a week. Is there anything I can do to say 'on your bike', legally? Can they actually chase me for this? Given that it has taken them 10 months to decide they are owed money.

"Reasonable" and "law" are different words with absolutely no connection, I'm afraid. If they can show the money is owed, then they are entitled to ask (and make) you repay it.

That said, you don't need to let their incompetence be your problem. You are quite at liberty to devise a repayment schedule that suits you, and suggest it to them in reply. Maybe (for example £10 a month over 50 months /).

They don't have to accept your offer and can pursue you in court for the full £500 immediately. However:

1. such a claim would be under the small claims limit and they would not be able to recover costs which would easily exceed £500.

2. When the judge sees you have offered to pay - and the circumstances ("Incompetence" has a lovely ring in court, along with "simple failings") they are very unlikely to rule to change it. Meaning the company would have lost their costs for nothing.

Personally (but I'm not very nice) there's also scope for deploying Slocombes sword. Which basically means having found one cockup by an organisation, there is an awful lot to be gained by repeatedly reminding them of it at every turn. Because I will personally guarantee where a balls up like this happens, there are plenty more lurking in the woodpile.

Good luck.

If you placed a notice in The Gazette and a local paper the pension provider would not be able to pursue you personally. They could pursue the beneficiaries but I suspect they would conclude that it was more trouble than it was worth.

If you didn't place a notice I'm afraid they can enforce the debt against you personally.

Just to pick up on a couple of things the previous poster has said...

A claim for £500 would indeed be under the small claims limit. They would not be able to recover any legal costs but they would be able to recover court costs, interest and potentially the cost of attending the hearing. If they don't use solicitors the cost to them of taking you to court would be low.

I wouldn't rely on the judge accepting on offer to pay £10 per month. The pension company is well within the time limit for claiming the debt - that is six years. The judge may well take the approach of looking at how much you can reasonably afford.

It always surprises me just how long it takes for organisations to reply to questions after a death. The fact remains though that you need to hear from any creditors and debtors and until you have confirmation from each and every one of them you do not have an accurate valuation of their estate, cannot get probate and should not distribute any estate.

This is the personal responsibility of the executor and is to be taken very seriously. You are personally responsible for the debts being paid before distributing the estate.

I mean, the money is owed - can you contact the beneficiaries to pay?

Surely it should be shared amongst the beneficiaries - if they've had it ?

I am a beneficiary! But I just find it incredible that it's taken them so long to decide they're owed any money.
When I sent them the d/c I did ask them to let me know if anything was outstanding either way. But that was last September.

I wouldn't rely on the judge accepting on offer to pay £10 per month. The pension company is well within the time limit for claiming the debt - that is six years. The judge may well take the approach of looking at how much you can reasonably afford.

Good thing it was only an example then . It's up to the OP to know what is reasonable without causing them undue hardship.
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Obviously the company involved make so many cockups in a week they've become inured to any hint they might not be the best pension company in the known universe. In fact, it might be considered by some that far from being a solitary lapse in an eon sort of event, this sort of mismanagement is actually their only way of doing business. The only way to be sure might be to encourage a full and frank discussion in a public forum - who knows, if others have had similarly poor experiences, maybe all those affected could work together and suggest potential improvements that the said company might consider.

Or not, as the case may be

Phone the Pensions Advisory Service and explain your situation to them. It’s free to use.

Do you know whether it is an occupational pension scheme? If so, it will be administered by a group of trustees and they are required to have an internal dispute resolution procedure in place. Ask for a copy of the procedure and raise a complaint. They may waive the overpayment as cost of dealing with the complaint and potentially getting their lawyers involved will far outweigh the amount you are trying to recover.

How have they arrived at that figure? They can't have just plucked it out of thin air, so there must be some sort of calculation.

bit of apparently it was a payment they made after relative died. I'd have to check the dates to see if I had informed them or not at the time it was paid.
It was never clear, when it was being paid whether it was in advance, in arrears, or partly both.
The amount is a months pension, but if they paid it out after I had informed them of the death, then that's surely their error.
If it's within a week or so of my informing them, I still would take have thought they would have asked for it back sooner.
Who keeps bank accounts open in the name of someone deceased for over 6 months just in case someone else overlooks something?
Had they requested the money after I had informed them, nearly a year ago, then it would have been no issue.

What date did you inform the bank of the death? What other transactions went through the account between then and closing the account?

If it's an occupational scheme the Trustee will most likely be required by the scheme rules to try and recover any overpayment otherwise is what is called an unauthorised payment and it causes tax problems; I used to work in pensions and this used to happen quite a lot either where pensions were paid in advance or we were informed too close to payroll cut off. I seem to recall there was a de minimis limit of around £300 for reclaiming but that was some years ago. Surprised it's taken them so long to work it out though!

Who keeps bank accounts open in the name of someone deceased for over 6 months just in case someone else overlooks something?

This is why an executor can't be made to distribute the estate until one year after death. So the answer to your question is lots of executors.

I'm sorry this has happened OP. I'm in a similar situation with my late Uncle's estate. I'm the executor. I sorted out probate. I wrote to all his credits and debtors. I've paid out all monies to the beneficiaries after sorting the funeral, household bills etc. I've recently received a letter from DWP demanding a copy of his bank statements as they believe there may be an overpayment of a pension - and in the same week, I received a tax rebate payable to the estate. He died over a year ago. I though it was all done and dusted.

I too am sorry this has happened. There is a lot for an executor to deal with after a death. Executing an estate is a service one performs for someOne who is no longer alive.

The part that I do not understand is that you wrote "I had a letter from pension co. saying sorry to hear, send death cert. and we will let you know if anything outstanding. That was in October."

At what point did you unilaterally decide that they would not be in touch again?

As you have discovered, some organisations can take some time to reply. I've taken it to be the executors job to chase them for a written answer before the estate can be fully valued.

We often encourage people on these threads to diy the valuation, probate and distribution. I would never reassure anyone that if they haven't heard, there was nothing owing. Quite the reverse, assume there was a debt to the estate until you have evidence to the contrary.

I informed the bank of the death the next working day.
The account was left untouched for 6 months, if I recall correctly, as the bank said that any money out would need authorisation, but payment in was fine.
I also informed pension co of the death very quickly - will need to check my records.
I must say that I don't recall seeing anything that suggested as executor that I should leave they account for a year.
But I wasn't expecting a company who normally would be in regular contact over any anomalies to take almost a year to chase up an overpayment, possibly made as an error on their part.

I shall have to look out the paperwork and see just when I informed them as that may make it clearer.

Looks as though I shall have to ask people for money.
However I think I will still write first to question why it had taken so long for them to decide this.

Looks as though I shall have to ask people for money.confused However I think I will still write first to question why it had taken so long for them to decide this.

Don't rush to pay it back at your inconvenience.

Personally I wouldn't waste any more time with them. You'll only get some mealy mouthed excuse back (if they actually read your complaint in the first place). And the ombudsman won't touch your case until you have exhausted the organisations own complaints procedure. And even then won't actually do anything as at the end of the day you aren't out of pocket. Concentrate your efforts where they can actually achieve something.

We had this with my mum too. We had completed the “tell us once” and included my contact details. They subsequently contacted my sister at my mum’s old address demanding a refund. By this stage we had received probate and distributed funds, so we told them they had missed their opportunity. We had correctly advertised in the Gazette.

Ohff that is pretty much the wording it has.

I should be clear, I understand that they made an overpayment, but I need to check whether they were aware that the person had died at the time they paid out. If so, then I shan't hurry.
Either way, they'll get their money (or at least some of it) back.
I'm just amazed at the bad admin as previously, if there had been a problem, they had been in touch immediately. So to wait almost a year to advise of an overpayment seems to be bad practice, if nothing else.

if there had been a problem, they had been in touch immediately

I wouldn't guarantee that. When the DWP thought they had overpaid tax credits to my wife it took them 2 years from the alleged overpayment before they asked for repayment. We disputed their calculation and pointed out that, on their figures, they actually owed my wife some money. It is now 11 years since we sent that letter. We are still waiting for a reply.

I’m a pensions lawyer. Speak to TPAS. Get a copy of IDRP procedure and complain. If complaint rejected, go to Pensions Ombudsman. The delay in seeking to recover overpayment is very likely to be maladministration. PO likely to make an award for distress and inconvenience. These awards are around £500 and could cancel out the amount you are being asked to overpay. However, doubt your complaint will get that far as pensions company will not want to go to expense of fighting complaint. Speak to TPAS in the first instance.

Thanks Winnie TPAS were very helpful, and I shall be writing to pension co today.