Anomoly in wording on family birth certificate

[MrsExpo]

Not sure of this is the right place to post, but hoping there might be someone here with the knowledge to answer a question for me - maybe a legal person, registrar or similar?. (all names changed).

I have recently had cause to get out my late parents' birth certificates. They were born in 1923 (dad) and 1924 (mum) and have noticed an anomaly in the way their mothers' names are recorded on the certificates.

Mum's certificate says: name - Susan Anne Smith; father - George Michael Smith; mother - Mary Florence Smith, formerly Brown.

Dad's certificate says: name - Albert James Jones; Father - William Henry Jones; mother - Elizabeth Sarah Jones, late Jones - formerly Green.

Can anyone explain what the addition of the "late Jones" line in dad's record means please. Was Granny Elizabeth married before, was dad conceived out of wedlock or some other issue?

I should add that this is purely a curiosity enquiry and has no formal or legal basis, but it might explain why dad was treated how he was by the family and some other family history issues which caused a lot of hurt and sadness at the time.

Thank you for any insights anyone can offer.

A google suggests the late name is of a previous husband who has died, so her surname was the first at the time of the birth of your dad, the late when she married the first time and the formerly before she married iyswim?

@FauxFox

A google suggests the late name is of a previous husband who has died, so her surname was the first at the time of the birth of your dad, the late when she married the first time and the formerly before she married iyswim?

Thank you for your reply. Oh, that's interesting. So she was Miss Green, who married to two men both called Jones?

She married Jones 1, who died, then married Jones 2??

The actual surname is quite unusual ... I wonder if she was married to brothers or cousins?? (I didn't think that was legal .... more digging required).

Thanks again.

If the married name and the late name are the same and not common maybe the two husbands were brothers and she married the second when her first husband died?

Cross-post - intriguing!

"I wonder if she was married to brothers or cousins?? (I didn't think that was legal .... more digging required"

There are biblical references to it not only being legal but encouraged for a widow to marry her late husband's brother.

My great great grandmother lost her husband young, to an accident while pregnant with their 5th child. She married his younger brother and went on to have 3 more kids. I don't think it was terribly unusual in those days for financial and inheritance purposes.

What year did they marry? Is it possible the first husband was an older brother who was killed in the war?

@FauxFox

What year did they marry? Is it possible the first husband was an older brother who was killed in the war?

I think they married in 1921 ... dad was born in 1923 and he had a brother born in 1925.

Also, I do think grandfather Jones had a brother who was killed late in WW1, so it might be possible that she was married to him first and then to his brother. I never thought of that. I'm fairly certain dad didn't have any half siblings, so she probably didn't have children with husband 1.

How intriguing. I'm going to have to do some ancestry research I can see.

Thank you for your insights.

I wonder if she was married to brothers or cousins?? (I didn't think that was legal .... more digging required).

You can't marry your own brother, although you can marry your own cousin, but there is nothing in law to stop you marrying your ex (or late) husband's brother or cousin.

If you go on Andestry.com (pay a months subscription for £13 ) it will have it all on there. It is amazing and ince you start building your family tree their systems start looking for hints as to family..and is incredibly accurate.

Be prepared to find things out you didn't anticipate. I've had a few shocks about family "stories" which were a cover

How intriguing. I'm going to have to do some ancestry research I can see.

You can use the Free BMD (births / marriages / deaths) search website to search for marriage records for free:

www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

Marriages after March 1912 are easier to search, as both parties names are given in the records.

I discovered a distant cousin had married his son’s wife’s (much older) sister after his first wife died for instance.

I do quite a bit of family history research and would agree with the interpretation. Green is her maiden name. She married Mr Jones, he died, then she married another Mr Jones. Marrying a brother/cousin from the same family isn't that unusual. Is she listed on the marriage certificate as a spinster or widow?

Bear in mind as you start digging not to take anything at face value and try, where possible, to confirm your sources by looking elsewhere. In my own family tree I have found people lying about their ages, lying about having been married before, too many misspellings of names to mention and blatant things on a census like a 64 year old putting herself down as the mother of a toddler when she has unmarried daughters in their 20s all living at home too.

Don't leap to conclusions and base your assumptions in fact! Your case could be a registrar's mistake or even a name change - if there is any foreign ancestry in hte past it was very common for immigrant families into the UK to anglicise their names - Yitzhak Grunberg becomes Isaac Greenberg, for example. Or even Isaac Green. Is that a possibility?

Henry VIII married his brothers widow (Katherine of Aragon) but then divorced after 21 years (memory)

WIKI
Marriage to Arthur's brother depended on the Pope granting a dispensation because canon law forbade a man to marry his brother's widow (Lev. 18:16[a]). Catherine testified that her marriage to Arthur was never consummated as, also according to canon law, a marriage was not valid until consummated.[29][30]

Yes to needing to do some digging - I’ve found quite a few people on censuses claiming to be married, they were but still to other people! - plus spelling errors and people flipping their names eg Annie Louise at birth but Louisa Ann on marriage.

At least with an unusual surname it makes things a bit easier.

Up to the 1940s it was not unusual for a young widow to get remarried to a brother of her husband. I have found a few like that in tracing family trees. Was often the only way for them to manage

@Normalmumandwife

Up to the 1940s it was not unusual for a young widow to get remarried to a brother of her husband. I have found a few like that in tracing family trees. Was often the only way for them to manage

So after a lot of emailing back and forth between myself, my brother and other long lost relatives, we have discovered that Granny Jones was indeed formerly married to Grandad Jones' brother. They married in 1915 - the middle of WW1 - and he was killed in action in September 1917. She went on the marry his brother (my grandfather) in 1921. As far as we can find out, there were no children from the first marriage, but we have discovered that Grandad Jones has further siblings who we knew nothing about.

This whole episode had served to re-establish my connections with cousins I haven't seen for years and ignited an interest in genealogy in me ... so some good has come out of this whole enquiry.

Thank you all again for your insights.

This is probably a common tale. A very young couple, married at haste while he was on leave or before he was sent away, and killed in action. So sad. They probably only had a very short period together (a couple of days) until he was on the train and headed for France.

@MrsExpo

Good to hear. I have had a similar experience with family in Aus I found as Ancestry shows family trees others have built which includes your relatives

@MrsExpo

You should be able to check if there were any children from the first marriage using Free BMD and your grandmothers maiden name, first husband’s surname and the date range between marriage and 9 months after his death? (Assumes that no babies were born before the marriage).

[quote SabrinaThwaite]@MrsExpo

You should be able to check if there were any children from the first marriage using Free BMD and your grandmothers maiden name, first husband’s surname and the date range between marriage and 9 months after his death? (Assumes that no babies were born before the marriage).[/quote]
Have checked and it seems that there were no children born to the first marriage. However, my cousin has sent me her dad’s birth certificate (my dad’s older brother). He was born in August 1921. Gran and grandad Jones were married in Jan, Feb or March 1921 so we are assuming gran was expecting my uncle when she and grandad (husband 2) were married, as he must have been conceived in December 1920. Did they marry because she was pregnant?

.... family scandals ....

I think that’s quite probably common, no doubt explained away by “the baby was born early”.

I’ve found a few marriages where a baby was born before the wedding and was given the husbands surname (usually 18th or 19th century).

Also if your grandparents had unusual names then look out for spelling mistakes in the GRO records too. I have the name Pushee in my family history which is variously recorded as Pushee, Pusher, Pushay and Pushey.

Ooooh how interesting OP, no scandals in my family tree as far as I can make out....