Following on from previous building AIBU - he's now threatening us with a debt collector.

[Settingup]

Following on from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3873320-AIBU-or-is-builder-taking-the-piss

Summary is builder sent £2400 bill for 6 day shoddy job. We asked for an itemised bill and have paid £1500. He reduced the bill by £400. We are refusing to pay the last £500 and he has just threatened to inform debt collectors...please read on.....

Builder sent itemised list of materials. Includes multipacks of screws, several new drill bits and various other items that I would have reasonably have expected the builder to have with him. Obviously he has taken all these with him to use on his next job (and presumably charge them too).
The builders merchants is a 50 minute round trip from our house. Over the course of a 6 day job he has gone 7 times - once twice on the same day. We have obviously been charged for the time. I fully expect to pay for time to purchase materials, but this was a simple job, they were briefed at the beginning and given a list. One trip, a maximum of 2 should have done it.
On his final bill he has included the materials +VAT and then added his own VAT to the top. We've checked with our previous builder who says this shouldn't happen. We've been charged VAT twice.
He also says that we have been charged for the travel time of his workmen from their homes to our house, hence the 8 hour day. I have never heard of a tradesperson charging for travel time, unless its a call out fee in an emergency.
We told him not to come back and fix the shoddy work, but advised him of it (specified the defects) and have also advised that his carpenter ruined our brand new carpet by not putting down a dust sheet.
We have paid the bill based on the hours we think are due. There is £500 outstanding.
Received a letter from him today saying that he will contact a debt recovery company if we haven't settled the bill by the end of the month. We can pay the bill, but we dispute the hours done, we've been double charged for VAT and he's ruined a £500 brand new carpet.
What do we do?

Tell him to sue you for the remainder and defend any claim (if made) with those arguments.

@ComeonEileen.....but how can we stop a debt collector coming around? I did think he might go down the small claims route, but I certainly didn't expect the threat of a debt collector. How can you send a debt collector around for disputed debt. Its not like a TV sitting in our living room.

I don't think a debt collector can do anything other than ask you to pay the money. They certainly can't enter your house. They don't have any legal power to do anything. I would just respond really briefly in writing to say that you dispute "x" because of "y". Then try to ignore it. It sounds like he wouldn't get very far in court and he's probably just try to scare you into paying.

Can you not counter sue him and go to the small claims for the carpet and shoddy work?

@boringrobot - he isn't threatening to sue us, just send debt collectors around. I don't see how you can collect debt for a disputed bill. Surely to bill has to be decided (in court if we can't agree) and then a summons sent? Only then if the bill isn't paid could you get debt collectors around.

Maybe get this thread moved to the legal section? I didn’t think they could send bailiffs without first going to court but that knowledge is only based on watching too many episodes of The Sheriffs Are Coming (or whatever it’s called). Stick to your guns, just read your previous thread and it sounds like they’re taking the piss big time.

I chase money for a construction company.

He can only send a debt collector round to enforce a county court judgment.

Has he sent a proper notice of claim.he has to set out in writing all the evidence he will rely on in court. If he has, write back (if you haven’t already) setting out why you are disputing the final amount.

His next step would be to file a small claim. If he does that don’t panic, just return the firms stating your case and any evidence you have of the dispute. Chances are it won’t go to court.

Debt collector-bailiff? They can take goods to the value of the debt if you won’t pay. I would counter with telling him you will be obliged to go to Small Claims Court to recover costs of the ruined carpet and any repairs needed to bodges made by him. You can also leave him a poor review on Yell/social media etc. I pointed out damage done by a sparky and told him to repair/replace would cost more than I owed him. He slunk off.

I have never heard of a builder needing to buy basic supplies like drill bits and screws-how unprofessional and 2 trips in one day? Bonkers.

@itslookinglikeabeautifulday - how to I ask MN to move the thread?

@Settingup - I have reported it for you so MNHQ should move it for you soon.

I think from memory bailiffs and debt collectors are 2 different things. Debt collectors have no right to enter your house or take anything they can only ask you to pay. Bailiffs can enter/take hence they can only be called in after successful court action.
Tell him he needs to take you to court if he wants a penny of that £500, you have a string defence

He can get a debt collection agency involved, but they don’t have any special powers so it would be a waste of his money. If they contact you, explain what has happened but don’t pay anything and ignore any threats.

He’ll need to take you to the small claims, at which point you could either dispute the claim or counter-claim. Doesn’t sound like he’ll have much of a chance of winning!

Strong!

A debt collection agency and a bailiff are two different things. He could instruct a debt collection agency yes, but they can't do anything more than he can do himself. They don't have any powers to enforce the debt, they're just a bit annoying. They'll come out with all sorts of threats to try and make you pay up because If they manage to pressure you into paying anything then they get an agreed cut of it. For him to send an actual bailiff he would have to get a CCJ and if he does make a claim you will get the opportunity to defend it. If the court takes his side and makes the judgement then he can escalate it to bailiffs, but if you feel like you have a very strong defence, call his bluff.

Hi OP! We'll move this over to Legal matters for you now.

Anyone in theory can use a debt collector to chase monies owed. They are not bailiffs or sheriff's officers and have no legal powers e.g. they can't try to enter your property or seize goods (this can only happen as PP has said where there is an unpaid CCJ for the debt).

Debt collectors are often threatened to scare people into paying up without court action. National debtline and citizen's advice have good sections on their websites.

Do tradespeople charge from when they leave their home or time in the job? I’ve never heard of the former except an emergency call out fee.

It depends Setting but it would be made clear up front.

For example we have a maintenance contract with a chain of stores and we would charge travel time or mileage to those as they range from between 10-50 miles away.

With regards to the builders merchant being a 50 mile round trip. That’s his problem, not yours. We would have either arranged for delivery of materials to site, used a closer merchants or called for materials at the start of the day.

@Comefromaway it’s not 50 miles it’s 50 minutes. Over a 6 day job he has made 7 trips to a building, 5 of those trips to the same building merchant and 2 on the same day. I’d expect to be charged for travel to to collect building materials directly related to the job, but he was briefed on the job at the start and given a written list. 2 trips should have been sufficient, but instead I’m being charged for 7 hours of time going to building merchants.
I’m also being charged travel time for his chippy to travel to and from my house each day (an hour round trip). I’ve never heard of being charged travel time by a tradesperson to a standard job.

Anyone comes around - they can’t come working 6 feet though.

As others have said, debt collectors don't have any special powers. You can stand your ground and refuse to pay. He will have to take you to court if he wants to force you to pay.

From what you say he will be on very shaky ground if he does go to court. For a start he can't include the VAT he has paid on materials and then charge you VAT on top. If he is registered for VAT he should reclaim the VAT on materials from the government, not charge you for it. If he isn't registered for VAT he can ask you to pay the VAT on materials but can't charge VAT on top.

Remember that you also have a claim against him for the ruined carpet. Given that cost you £500, if it was brand new you should claim that much from him. Since that is the amount outstanding you have, in effect, already paid more than you should as all you have withheld is the value of the damage he did. You haven't deducted anything for the things he shouldn't have charged or the poor quality of the work.

In your situation I would be tempted to go on the offensive and send him a letter before action stating that you want £500 for the ruined carpet, giving him a reasonable deadline to pay and stating that you will take legal action if he doesn't.

OP, when you agreed the original price for the job, did you agree an hourly rate or an overall rate for the job? We had builders in and our price was an overall rate to get the job completed in 3 weeks, which they did. On some days there were four tradespeople on site all day, at other times just one. Your builder may well have been on another job at the same time as yours, that's common practice.
Regarding the carpet, I would say it was your responsibility to make sure it was protected properly.
Regarding things like nails, screws etc, of course he will buy a bag at a time. Do you think he should have left them at yours? Same with drill bits. They often go blunt so need replacing anyway.
I can see the point with regard to the double VAT, and I would be asking that the bill be separated into items bought and labour. Then you pay the VAT only once in each bit.

He can use a debt collector but all they can do is write to you and ask for the money. They may use very official looking letters and have some threats but they are meaningless. People who have received parking penalty charges get them all the time and ignore.

For a debt collector to have any authority, there must be a county court judgment and clearly it is no where near that.

Make sure everything is in writing and include what you have previously agreed with him. Be factual and reasonable and be clear what you are prepared to pay fr the work undertaken, and explain your reasons why. If they have caused damage, then deduct the cost of repairing it but make sure you do in an informed basis, ie against three quotes.

Based on what you have said, I can't see him going to the small claims court to fight this one.