Child contact refused

[ThisMustBeMyDream]

Can anyone offer any help to my OH. His ex is refusing contact indefinitely due to covid-19. She has form for frustrating contact.

She states that she won't be allowing contact as she is too worried. She said that their daughter was high risk.

Child takes a daily sachet of 4mg montelukast, and has a reliever inhaler. No daily inhaler. The GP have confirmed she is not high risk (he rang for clarification today).

He has already taken steps to safeguard his child. Eg. He cancelled midweek contact (2 hours to take out for dinner) due to Governement guidelines advising not to go to pubs/restaurants etc early last week. He knew mum was self isolating due to being unwell at the start of last week also, asked mum what she wanted to do about this weekends contact - ie. If she needed him to and her he would, equally he knew they were self isolating, so advice is to stay home.

He is working from home (teacher) so is able to alter contact arrangements to whatever suits her. He isn't high risk. Mum isn't high risk, although it does seem that she is like.to have had covid-19. She was in hospital with breathing difficulties twice in the last 10 days.

He isn't trying to be unreasonable. He knows his ex's history though, and knows she will try to prevent contact wherever possible (she was already trying to minimise any holiday contact over easter - court order states 50/50 holidays. She wanted him to have 5 days and her have 11).

There is no justifiable reason to deny contact. Their daughter isn't even with her mother at the moment. She is with grandparents. Mum is at home recovering.

The pandemic could go on for a very long time. In other countries on lockdown contact is proceeding where safe to do so. There is no reason here why it would not be. It seems like once again, there is little he can do. Is there? I'm worried that this could tip him over in to depression.

There is government guidance on this. It’s a difficult situation. Parents must act reasonably and can be challenged if they have not. I think I would not push too hard at the moment if the mum has been in hospital twice because the DC is settled with grandparents. I’m not sure getting upset about “rights” is timely. I would see if she recovers and then approach the subject again. If he couldn’t see DC for months, that is entirely different and should be challenged but your DS hasn’t got to that stage yet.

No one here is upset or concerned about "rights". He has a responsibility to his child, and he would like to know what he can do if she is kept away for months on end. He is waiting til the end of the next week before sending another message to try and resume the dialog. He is under no illusion though that she will change her stance.
Are courts going to run an enforcement hearing if he has to go down that route? He has literally just been through court. His experience of court is that evidence is not accepted (ie. If he provided medical evidence from GP) and the primary carers word is gospel. If she says child should be kept away, then that is that.
The only choices he will be left with is either he leaves it and child stays away for a long time, or he enforces. He can't do wrong for doing right on this one really.

But if she is isolating then surely the default carer is DH rather than the grandparents who are most probably in the vulnerable category!!!

That isn't an arguement he will ever win. So he won't broach that subject.

Yes the courts are still running so he can get contact enforced and with a history of his ex frustrating contact and him able to offer a safe environment then if she won't be reasonable then I would take this route.

Your post is unclear. If the mother’s household is self isolating because the mother has had symptoms they must remain in isolation for 14 days, but the courts will expect the lost time to be made up after that 14 days.

The courts are running but this isn't going to be priority and will likely take weeks now likely months to progress.

Agree with PP that if mother is self-isolating because she has symptoms then the child needs to isolate too for 14 days.

If you bring proceedings for enforcement the mum will be asked if she thinks she had a reasonable excuse, if she says yes and the court agree then that's the end of it. In any event the sanctions for enforcement are punitive - fine, unpaid work, ultimately custody - none of those are going to help your partner see his child now.

He needs to understand mother's situation, she'll be scared - we all are. He could suggest alternative ways of seeing his child - Skype, phonecalls, letters etc. Not ideal but it's something and is also what the courts envisage should happen if the normal contact can't happen at the moment.

I do understand it's hard but this isn't normal situation and sometimes we have to make do and mend. The more he can talk to the mother about it the more he is likely to achieve as hopefully he can allay her concerns.

If the mother has had covid 19 or symptoms, then the child needs to be in isolation for 14. This is to prevent the spread to your household.

I would say that until that 14 days is up then your dh has to accept the government guidelines to prevent the spread!

Time can be made up in the future.

If the child is at the grandparents he needs to go over and get her he is the parent not them he has the right to do that and doesn't have to return her until the mother is no longer self isolating

Yet the post yesterday where a man wouldn't hand back the child was full of 'go and get her'

@slipperywhensparticus if the mother had symptoms and gave the child to be looked after by the grandparents, the grandparents and child need to be in isolation for 14 days.

This is the reason people shouldn't move between households of other relations as most people ignore this.

With children of separated parents each parent would consider the child part of their own household, and so if someone in their household got symptoms with the child present they keep the child rather than take them to the other parent.

@Collaborate to be clear, his ex/daughter are in self isolation until tomorrow (partner in self isolation until weds). It is going forward once self isolation is over. She is refusing any contact going forward as she is "too concerned" and child is "too high risk". She isn't high risk, if she was my partner would absolutely agree to leave her in the safest place.
He is concerned that she plans to stop contact indefinitely for reasons that are untrue.

If there’s an order she is in breach. If there’s no order he should issue an application to court.

Yes there is an order. If he can't talk it through to compromise with her (unlikely), when should he be issuing an enforcement? After the 1st definite breach?He was due to have 50% of easter hols but she was quibbling over this prior to the current situation - so technically 7th April is the next time he is due to have her, but they had failed to agree a return date as she was wanting him to have 5 days to her 11 days. Normal contact weekend after that is not until the weekend after the easter hols. Does he need to wait til then? Or do it when she fails to allow contact on 7th, as he at least has that in writing she was allowing contact on that date.

What a bloody mess .

You can't start enforcement action until there has actually been a breach You can't make a pre-emptive application.

You need to consider what the purpose of contacting the court is. What do you actually want and what can the court do in the current circumstances.

By starting enforcement action and pursuing it the court are going to have to determine whether there has been a breach and if so whether, in the circumstances the breach was reasonable. Do you think given the current climate a court is likely to determine mum's actions aren't reasonable? If they say they are reasonable then you are no further forward. If they say they aren't reasonable then the court can look at punitive sanctions but that isn't what the family court is there for as one parent being punished doesn't encourage good parental relations. They can say the current order stands, they could also vary it. All of this is a long, time consuming process - just remember the current situation could well have changed significantly by the time this reaches court. Remember the only thing the court is interested in, is the welfare of the child. The court may decide that mum's actions are unreasonable but given the situation (things could easily change again by the time this is looked at) it isn't in the child's best interests to move between two houses.

It may be difficult but try and stop assuming mum's behaviour is unreasonable. Try talking to her, seeing what can be done to allay her concerns. Make suggestions, be open to alternative ways of having contact. Wait until she's actually in breach of the order before considering what to do. She may surprise you. Remember, when this is all over your partner and her need to continue to parent this child together.

Good luck

I did put paragraphs in there

I appreciate your answer. The background would be too long to go in to, but rest assured - she simply wants no input from him in their daughters life. She has said it to him - she sees no value in a child having a father as it has done her other child "no harm". He knew she would do this, but could only hope she wouldn't. She has, so now he has to move forward and try to find a way through.

My last message was asking when the breach will occur because of the easter holiday. His order is every other weekend, tuesday evening 2 hours for dinner in the local area, and 50/50 of all school holidays with term time contact suspended. The school holidays was a new addition at the most recent court case in feb. She had already emailed the court and tried to protest the wording of the order. She only wanted him to have 5 days out of 16. As things stood at the point where all this started, they had agreed a pick up date only. So when does the breach occur? At this date? Or the next definite weekend date, which would not be until the weekend after the easter holidays finish.

(He already agreed to suspend midweek contact as I said earlier - no way she would agree to him bringing her home overnight and taking her back the next day, so he didn't even enter that dialogue).

Generally Child Arrangements Orders allow for variation of the order by agreement. If he's already agreed to forgo his normal contact (the midweek one?) then she isn't in breach of that. The breach will therefore occur when he should have next seen her and either goes to collect her or she texts him and says he can't have her. From the child's point of view the latter would be better as dad turning up on the doorstep and mum refusing dad access could be very distressing for the child.

You have to bear in mind the courts are under a lot of pressure though. If everyone brought enforcement action the first time there was a breach they'd be swamped. It also doesn't necessarily reflect that well on dad that his first course of action is to move straight to the courts the first time his contact doesn't occur.

I appreciate you have a dim view of mum, perhaps rightly so, but I'm going to repeat that you need to consider the current climate in all of this. Mum may be using it for her own purpose but these are terrifying times and your partner I anticipate is going to have a struggle to try and convince a court that mum's actions aren't reasonable. Would you want to be the judge that ordered contact took place with dad against mum's wishes and dad turns out to have CV? The court is only interested in the child's welfare and they are going to have to balance the child's physical health and the effect of moving between two households with the impact on the child's mental health of not seeing dad in person, particularly when other contact can take place - Skype, phonecalls etc.

It is terrible that some people may use this crisis for their own ends but they will and I have no doubt there will be a lot of parents who don't see their children for a significant period of time ☹️

The guidance given to the judiciary over this is clear - parents should adhere to the official advice, and parents will be judged for not following it.

Where parents do not agree to vary the arrangements set out in a CAO, but one parent is sufficiently concerned that complying with the CAO arrangements would be against current PHE/PHW advice, then that parent may exercise their parental responsibility and vary the arrangement to one that they consider to be safe. If, after the event, the actions of a parent acting on their own in this way are questioned by the other parent in the Family Court, the court is likely to look to see whether each parent acted reasonably and sensibly in the light of the official advice and the Stay at Home Rules in place at that time, together with any specific evidence relating to the child or family.

See here www.judiciary.uk/announcements/coronavirus-crisis-guidance-on-compliance-with-family-court-child-arrangement-orders/

I presume the phrase "after the event" does not necessarily mean after the emergency is over. The courts are still sitting, albeit under a much reduced capacity and many hearings are remote.

I quoted that when I replied above. The op does see the mums actions as sinister but at the moment we don’t know and advice is that DC do not have to be moved around if it’s not safe to do so.

I quoted that when I replied above. The op does see the mums actions as sinister but at the moment we don’t know and advice is that DC do not have to be moved around if it’s not safe to do so.

But in working out whether it is safe to do so regard will be had to the official guidance. Fail to follow that will be deemed by the court to be unreasonable. It is not acceptable for one parent to simply decide it isn't safe without being backed up by the guidance.

Yes. Agreed. But we are still having to be careful in regard to ill people and the vulnerable.

The OP’s DS is a teacher. They are certainly not all working from home and many are on a rota to work in the holidays. He could well be in contact with others who are carrying the virus. The Mum in this case was self isolating and has been in hospital for breathing difficulties. That puts shuttling the child between households as more risky than normal. I think the mum should resume normal arrangements as soon as possible and it’s not particularly risky for the DC but it is for the mum. DC would be staying with a teacher who may well be required to work if fit enough to do so. It doesn’t appear to be one long holiday for teachers.

Thanks for the responses.

He is a teacher, but it looks like he will be furloughed. He is long term supply, and in a precarious position. If he is not furloughed, they are reducing him to 3 days, and making him do the online learning side of things (another battle he faces). Either way, he won't be back at school. He has told mum the same. She didn't change her stance.

I have posted other threads about her attempts to stop contact, reduce it or manipulate the order in other ways and I have said that he is not keen to enforce. It is his last option. That remains the case now. He will be trying to speak to her again, but wants to know what options he has right now. He really appreciates the advice he gets from here. So thanks.

So contact is still being refused. He discussed it with her last night. She said again that the GP (a different one in the practice) said that their daughter should be shielded for an indefinite period until this is all over.

He spoke to this GP today who said she wasn't in the shielded group, but she recommended to mum that contact cease for 2 - 4 weeks. DP asked for the reasons, and the GP said because the peak will be here this weekend, and that contact between households wasn't allowed. DP asked if she knew that separated parents children can move between households. She said she wasn't aware of that. The conversation was left with the GP asking DP to send her the guidance about children moving between parents homes. He did this straight away, but has had no response as of yet.

This isn't the first time mum has tried to stop contact using the GP. Last time the GP retracted their letter when given the facts by DP (posted about it this time last year if you wanted to read). It seems the GP wasn't aware of the recommendation that children may travel between parents homes when she suggested 2-4 weeks break in contact.

DP hasn't spoken to mum since, but she was sticking by her story last night that the GP has said no contact indefinitely, so I can't imagine things moving forward much when they speak tonight.

Video call was tried by the way - the child is 3, and simply not interested in engaging whatever DP has tried so far.

I'm not really posting for advice anymore - as I don't think anyone can give it. Just needed a sounding off place really as seeing DP upset with all of the unknowns is pretty emotionally tough.