Breaking court order/What rights do I have? (Feels like none)

[SabrinaJo1]

Hi everyone.
I will try to make this as short as possible, however I feel it may not work.

I was in an abusive relationship for 10 years and had two children with him. It took every ounce of strength I had to eventually leave him (as I would often be threatened that he and his parents would ensure I never saw the children as they had money and I had nothing). When I started seeing him emotionally abuse my daughter as he would me (she was 5) that’s what “woke me up.”

We were put in a woman’s refugee for 6 months.

I read other people’s posts and I can’t believe the system is like it is. I wouldn’t believe it had I not have been put through hell the last two years through child contact, the courts and CAFCAS.

I have never prevented the father from seeing the children, however he is chronic excessive in drugs and alcohol and for this I asked he be supervised. The courts thought his parents would be suitable supervisors but they have not been, they have encouraged him and enabled him to continue abusing me even after leaving. It’s been a nightmare.

The only stipulation I have stated and I refuse to back down on is that I myself, will have no contact with him or his family given their continued behaviour.

When I left, I just wanted to concentrate on my children as I honestly didn’t think I would ever emotionally be able to get into another relationship again after my experiences, however I met the most lovey man who was patient, supportive and amazing with me and my children and I won’t blab on, but we are engaged, all live together in a safe and happy environment and have just welcomed our own beautiful little daughter into the world.
However the hell we have and are being put through from my children’s father and his parents is ridiculous.

The children would come home saying their father keeps putting them up to tell lies at school, that he has been telling them he plans to hurt the new baby and other such things.

The father broke court order and kidnapped the children last year, refused to give them back and when he did, he took them to social services and forced my 6 year old daughter at the time to say my partner sexually abused her.
It was horrific, my partner was ripped out our home for over 3 weeks, we had social services place the children on plans. We worked with social, it was horrific but we did and everything came out pretty quickly.
Social investigates and realised it was the father who had forced my daughter to say these lies. The court were outraged and placed the father in a contact centre for about 7 months as he and his parents could not be trusted. Even then, they were doing similar things. But despite their villainous behaviour and all the evidence Iv got of it, the courts don’t seem to care.

There used to be court ordered telephone contact prior to the contact centre and he would Be passive aggressive to the children whilst threatening me and my partner. (We never spoke with him ourselves, he would just be saying these things knowing we were in earshot) it got so bad, we started recording conversations and have recordings of the Inappropriateness and threats.

The resounding message is it’s not about us, it’s about the children. And I FULLY agree and think that’s the way it should be, however, it seems like my ex behaving like a complete animal and is aloud to have such a detrimental impact on my life and I’m told just suck it up.

Anyway, the final order was done. The children have overnights and he is ordered to be fully supervised ect. The final hearing was a completely different judge than who was scheduled and we have been in front off all along, and the new judge was horrific.

I’m not happy with most of the rulings as they just seem generic and have not taken any of what has and is happening into account.
However one ruling that has become a huge issue that I would appreciate advice or conversation with people who may have been through similar is Skype calls.

It wasn’t discussed prior, the judge just said it needed to be Skype calls. Firstly, our WIFI is terrible, it only really works in our bedroom and there is no way I want him seeing our bedroom or our house.
(It’s previously been ruled he cannot have any personal information of my partner or our address).
I am okay with normal calls (as the father can’t ask the children to show him letters with our address, or other such requests) The one time we did let a video call take place, he lied and made up a story to report to social services.

I tried to correct this after court. I have told them that Skype cannot take place, however normal calls can, and almost as restitution, I would be willing to offer 3 extra overnight stays on the holiday. Which I’m not happy about but thought it was entirely reasonable.

They have categorically refused and demanded Skype calls.

I’m going to have to apply to the court to vary the order. I just want to know if anybody has done similar and what their experience was?

I understand it’s about the kids, however I deserve to be free of all this control, allegations and continually attacking. I need a safe respite and am not prepared to let him view into my home or such.
I don’t think this is unreasonable at all but I know a judge has ruled it, and by refusing I am in breach of a court order.

I’m so sorry for the long message.
Thank you

this does sound horrific but you are letting yourself be overwhelmed with the magnitude of all the issues put together, and you need to break it down.

for the Skype calls - buy a kingsize white bed sheet and some picture hooks. when the kids have skype time set it up so that the only thing in camera shot is the white sheet as a plain backdrop and a plain chair. don't let the kids touch the device so they can't move it around to show anything personal.

during the conversation on skype you or your partner should be monitoring the conversation with your finger on the power button of the modem. the moment he says anything inappropriate, kill the power. the call ends instantly. obviously keep recordings of what was said each time you do this.

nb it is still a Skype call if the connection is so dodgy that he mostly sees a still picture on screen that only updates once a minute or so due to the poor quality of the connection.

ElluesPichulobu, thank you for your response. And I agree. The problem is however the wording of the court order.
It was in no way discussed and the judge never ruled it, however their barrister put the final order together and it states that I and any other adult needs to vacate the room and the children need to have the call in private.

There are numerous things that made it’s way into the order like that which I can’t believe.

And I have kept logs of the inappropriate things. It’s near 14 pages, I have recordings of him actually threatening us in front of the children. Ultimately though, they have not helped me one bit.

Surely I have a right to privacy? His relationship with the children isn’t effected, he has direct contact and a normal phone call.

It’s all just about him asserting control which I am sick to death of and really won’t let him have over me anymore.

Not a lawyer but I believe you should have been given the opportunity to read and object to any additions to the order that weren't discussed in court at the time. I have also come across this tactic as a way of getting extra things in.

I've been back to court to vary an order myself.

Have you discussed with your solicitor?

Hmmm with all that's gone on I think you might just have to refuse and really they can't force you. There's no way they will give the children to him over this. I'd just say no and do regular calls.

You should have been given a copy of the order to approve before it was put before the judge to sign. Did you have a solicitor / barrister at court with you?

Unfortunately I’m legal aid. My solicitor, although has been fantastic, just wants things over as I’m continually being told “legal aid has run out” this has went on for a long time due to my ex making up anything he can to keep me going back to court.

I did have a barrister, he was a new barrister I had not had before and due to this fact, in the court room at the end, the oppositions barrister said she would put everything together as she had been privy to everything since the beginning of proceedings.

I did tell my solicitor everything, and she basically told me what ElluesPichulobu did, she was basically saying I can get around it all by bad WiFi, or put a sheet up and that the other bad worded parts are not enforceable and not to worry. (Skype is enforceable however).

I am petrified of my ex, he has stalked me, threatened me, held the children hostage. I am so frustrated because I feel barristers and solicitors never put my point across no matter how much I plead with them.

No, I know they wouldn’t take the children. That has been made perfectly clear.
However they continually threaten me with enforcement proceedings, they have tried suing me for thousands, tried getting me community service and each tome they have been laughed out of court.

But when you ha e such scary solicitors letter from them and everyone tells you basicly “you can’t break order or x y and z”
It’s bloody petrifying.

I am not going to do it, I will give normal calls. I DID try and offer an extra 3 nights to show I was trying to be flexible but with their very hostile response I have now withdrew that.

I feel if or when I go back to court showing I made that offer and tried may help me slightly.

But I’m so upset I feel I have been misinformed as there is lots of wording I didn’t agree to and nobody gave me any chance to pre-approve.
It’s went over the period to appeal now I believe as it was beginning of November.

Sorry, this is a long shot but does the court order specifically say Skype video calling? You can have voice calls only, I use it a lot when talking to people with a bad connection. What happens if your WiFi just isn't good enough to support video calling? If multiple devices are on the same connection at the same time the speed slows down so much that video doesn't work. If you were, say, watching iPlayer on the TV, had the radio on your phones and started downloading on another computer Skype may very well struggle. I doubt the court can require you to upgrade your internet, but would that mean moving to more contact time? What I mean is you can try and find a loop hole but will that bring worse consequences?

I feel it’s such a trivial thing. Despite it being clearly not safe, I’m letting the children go for overnight visitation as the court have ordered.
I am fine as I can be with Normal phone calls. I don’t the judge to be angry with me for possibly thinking I’m “above the law” it’s not that at all.

What was your experience when varying the order ‘doyoumind’? Was it successful?

It worked out for me because ex was exploiting a loophole that was going to mean contact issues for years and years despite the CAO. Going back just about Skype probably wouldn't go down well with the court. If that's the only issue you want to address, I would just facilitate phone calls and if he doesn't like it he can take you back to court and make himself look controlling. Don't offer him extra days. You don't need to.

You are in a difficult position and I empathise because I know so much of what these men do is about control and how the courts don't listen. The most important thing is to take back control where you can. Don't spend time worrying about how he will react to everything. That's him still controlling you. I know that feeling and it's so stressful.

VeniVidiVoxi Unfortunately it dose specify Skype.

Yes I can make the Skype quality bad. But I think it’s also the principle. I don’t want him seeing into my surroundings. My partner is very set against it as we have our daughter around and my ex has already threatened to hurt her. I’m aware it all sounds pretty pathetic. But it may bite me in the arse, but I feel so strongly I need to make a stand. I have a right to privacy.

And the kids don’t even want calls when it used to happen, it would be a fight to make them talk.
If my children wanted it, I would of-course let it happen. But they have no interest.

To be honest, I have fought for him to have no contact as he is so bad for my children.
But as I’m sure we all know, our hands are tied, so on the courts head be it.

If they awarded him more time, I would rather that than them try to make me do Skype calls. I offered that myself but got told no (it’s a control thing).

They are his children. And the children will benefit from both parents (providing he cuts out his behaviour and addictions and abuse which I actually have no faith will happen).

I would tell them you don't have WiFi. Or a laptop. They are not allowed in your home to check. As Pp said. This is a ridiculous thing to go back to court over. Especially as you're offering phone contact.

It’s absolutely ridiculous to Sykpe on your bedroom. Do it on the sofa or in the kids room and if the signals bad that unfortunate.
You are overthinking it as we all do.
Skype in an appropriate room.
Don’t force the kids to talk, when they get up and wonder off let them.
Don’t slow them to touch the phone, to see around the house, put it in a stand and tell them to leave it there.
Even tho an adult cannot be in the room supervising, I’m sure you can be in the hallway sorting laundry etc, just don’t make it look to the children like you are “on edge” as that won’t be nice for them x

This is why you have to be so vigilant and read the court order when you receive it. The same happened to our family in that the father's counsel drafted the final order. I immediately found some nonsense in it and I referred it back to the Court clerk. I said it was not as stated in the hearing.

It had to be referred back to the Judge who re-checked and said I was correct so the order had to be re-drawn. Never be afraid of challenging any inconsistencies or errors. We were self representing and sometimes it is easier to acquiesce, but never do this.

It even read that our gs had to be made available for his father's wedding for a longer time period because it was many miles away. It was five minutes away.

I never even received the second order relating to my gs2 and that was a residence order! Again, the Judge had to re-check and I eventually received the order.

I dont know how old the order is op, but I would query it and say it was not as discussed in court - if this is true. It does appear counsel for your ex has used a bit of artistic licence.

It was end of November. I thought I only had two weeks in which to appeal.
My solicitor (legal aid) dose not want to take any more actions as she considers it “done” to a degree.

They are being absolute controlling douchebags but she has basically put them in their place.

Iv found this thread very helpful, I appreciate @Doyoumind comment about how the Jude will feel respective of both parties bringing it back to court. And ultimately, I’m going to wait and see if he takes it back.

I won’t do Skype. I will just allow normal calls until my children are old enough to have their own phone and then they are free to do what they like and can make their own decisions.
But if he dose, I’m sure it will just make him look even more controlling especially as it’s accepted on court that he forced his child to make false sexual abuse claims and other such horrors.

@ElsieMc, I noticed you said you self represented. After 10 years of being told I’m pathetic and useless. My fight was and to a degree gone. I’m petrified of going to court and therefore have appreciated the help of solicitors and barristers. However, now all is said and done, I am kind of regretting it as I feel a lot of the problems are because barristers and solicitors not getting it right.
At the end of court, it was 5:30, I never got to see a final draft as it wasn’t done. I saw it a week later and I did bring it all up with my solicitor who basically told me it’s just wording, don’t worry, and nobody can enforce if I’m in the room, or responses as such to my objections.
I felt there was nothing I could do.

But now I’m thinking. IF I just wait, IF he takes me back because no Skype.
Maybe I would be better representing myself?
And what? Should I refuse to leave the court until Iv seen the order? And that would be done outside the court room? As I could have a friend or someone with me? (They help my confidence and assertiveness which unfortunately I have not much off).

As my understanding is, IF this dose go back to court, a new order will be done and the old one void.

I can’t understand counsel for my ex. I swear solicitors can’t represent you if they know your lying. He has been proven out in so many lies and put the solicitors in so many awkward situations where they look like idiots over the last two year it’s crazy.

I have self represented as well as having representation as I've been to court several times. It isn't as bad as you imagine.

Solicitors will do what they are instructed. They can advise against it but they just have to go along with what your ex wants. It isn't a case of them believing him.

Op, you are correct that having legal representation diminishes stress, although court is always very stressful, the lead up to and the hearing itself.

I would have to disagree with your solicitor regarding the wording of the order. The wording forms part of the order and what is says really really does count or what is the point.

I know this because of another error in an order which changed collection times/venue to 4.30 pm. Unfortunately the order referred to term time and this meant they tried to collect at 3.15 pm during holiday times exploiting vagaries.

The Judge eventually noted the error. I should have had the guts to ask for clarification but like yourself your fight goes.

I breached an order and this brings enormous stresses in itself. I became convinced I would be sent to prison or lose the children. What I did was move the venue for collection because it was an open environment where he was aggressive towards me in front of the children outside school. Instead I took them to a relatives house where they could peacefully hand over my gs and close the door. The school did not want to facilitate handovers which was their right.

I was lucky, the new Judge could see the stress it was causing and how it affected the children. But it could have gone either way.

You won't see it now op, but this will pass as your children grow older. I can only offer you my sympathy.

@SabrinaJo1 I know it specifies Skype calls, but I think you can do Skype audio calls (so like a phone call but using Internet rather than phone lines). Unless it specifically says that they have to be video calls I think I'd use Skype audio calls that way you aren't breaching the court order but you still don't have to see him.

This sounds like my ex, like in every way. Every way. My court order doesn’t include phone calls or Skype calls. And if it did, there would be no way for reasons due to harrassment and abuse. What are the benefits of Skype calls? Are they in the children’s best interests? How? My ex wanted calls but wanted them and we tried with his mum supervising but he started then with accusations of child abuse like your ex. I get that the children should see/ have contact with their father but the benefits of the Skype calls seems to completely be outweighed by the detrimental effects on you (there’s lots and lots of research on the effects of maternal mental health on children) and also the potential risks involved, of which there is already documentary evidence.

Hey @user765. It’s absolutely ridiculous.
As I have previously mentioned, I am outraged it all basically goes on the whim of the judge.
It feels like a few are educated in domestic abuse but the majority are completely ignorant to this huge prevalent issue running rife in family court.
I can’t tell you the stress each time I have to go to court, however I feel you will somehow understand. And it fee that he gets off on it, it’s a roll of the dice for him and he makes such outlandish demands.
One common judgment that had been put in place throughout has been a childminder or 3rd party so we don’t meet. This was after months of him using handovers to stalk/threaten/bully and intimidate me. And get this, he keeps partitioning to come to my house and pick the children up directly from my house despite a judge ruling he can’t have my address. The guy has an absolute screw loose and it’s like the system dose not care. Instead, tries to vilify me when Iv done absolutely nothing wrong at all.

It’s horrible, but Iv given up trying to show CAFCAS or social services or anyone the truth of the situation. Ultimate no matter how much I tell the truth he tells such ridiculous lies and it’s just stupid.

All I want and I am determined to get it, is to live MY life free of him.
It’s so hard, I keep the children out of all this but he just drips poison every week and in left to pick up the pieces, but Iv accepted this is the way it’s just gonna have to be.
When they are older, they will see right through him all on their own with him behaving the way he is.

But the whole system is a joke. They don’t care about victims and they don’t care about the dangers they expose children too.