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Driving offences in england need advice please

57 replies

mayaknew · 02/01/2020 01:16

I live in Scotland but have been charged with speeding in england. It wasn't me it was dh but now I've been charged with the speeding and failing to identify the driver. I didn't see a letter asking me to but my mental health has not been great recently so I've been doing a lot of avoiding inc opening letters.

Anyway .. I will plead guilty to failing to provide information however I want to plead not guilty to the speeding dh obviously will take responsibility for this.

My question is .. Will I need to attend court in england? And do I need a lawyer?

OP posts:
DontLookBackIntoTheSun · 05/01/2020 09:29

But you say that you didn’t open your post, and that’s why you didn’t reply to the police notice. All they have to prove is that they sent it to you. It is not a defence to say that you didn’t even open the envelope!

If you do plead not guilty, you will have to attend court. You will be convicted and the fine and costs will be much more. You are right though, the number of penalty points will be the same

FiveShelties · 05/01/2020 09:39

Have you advised them who was driving? If not how can you plead not guilty?

ProfessorSlocombe · 05/01/2020 11:52

So much advice on here that's well meant but not right...

Because people are missing the point.

OPs husband is driving, and picks up a speeding ticket.
OP then proceeds to ignore the NIP, which is their one chance to let the courts know it was their DH driving, and to legitimately require the DH to take the penalty (whatever that may be).
OP now gets further communication changing them with the offence.

It's now at this point the OP suddenly "remembers" it was their DH driving, and wants to suddenly put the penalty back onto them.

From the courts point of view the OP has basically acted like every other person who tries, or has tried, or is trying to "take the points" for someone else.

Some oversights the law can live with, after all we don't live in a perfect world. However, some "oversights" - especially ones which can affect who might receive a penalty - are not so easy to dismiss.

This is a danger when you start creating black and white offences predicated on mere facts. Peoples intentions, meanings, (and excuses) count for nothing as you no longer need to prove the intent that is usually required for a conviction.

There was a spectacularly dim poster elsewhere recently who was blathering on about being done for illegal tyres. That's another offence that doesn't need any proof of intent. Dodgy tyres ? You are done, my son.

I hope the OP gets it all sorted, but it won't be straightforward. If a court appearance is needed, then the OPs DH may be required to attend, since they are going to have to admit the original offence.

Of course, the OP could now do nothing, and let the points fall on them. But that would be indefensibly illegal, and risky since we don't know what the evidence is. It could be a beautiful snap of the DH at the wheel.

DontLookBackIntoTheSun · 05/01/2020 12:01

I think you are missing the point, Professor Slocombe. It doesn’t matter now who was driving, as there is a more serious charge of failing to identify the driver. I expect it is more than 6 months since the speeding charge, so it is now too late to charge the OP’s DH with that offence anyway.
The reason why OP did not respond to the s172 notice are not relevant to her guilt but she may be able to persuade the court that those reasons amount to mitigation.
She is guilty of failing to ID the driver and the speeding charge will be dropped

ProfessorSlocombe · 05/01/2020 12:32

I think you are missing the point, Professor Slocombe. It doesn’t matter now who was driving, as there is a more serious charge of failing to identify the driver.

and an even more serious charge that that of perverting (or attempting to pervert) the course of justice. So much more serious than a piffling traffic offence as Chris Huhne, and Fiona Onasanya can attest to.

Just for the sake of clarity I'm not saying that is what the OP is doing. But that is what it could look like to a court.

mayaknew · 05/01/2020 16:28

There is absolutely no way I would take points for dh or deliberately mislead the court. It didnt even occur to me it would look like that. It's just not worth my professional registration. Not that I would lose it for this but if I lost my licence it could put it in jeopardy and would have a massive impact on my ability to do my job even if I kept my job.

But I dont know how I would prove that? I mean I could prove I rarely open letters as I have months of them hidden so I could show them i suppose? But would they even care?

OP posts:
SeemsSoUnfair · 05/01/2020 17:07

It doesn't matter if you can prove you rarely open letters to your plea.

The court served you (through the post) with documents and possibly a reminder, and instructed you to provide driver information you are legally obliged to provide. You did not respond. Regardless of who was initially driving, who committed the original offence, or why you didn't response, it is an indisputable fact, you and only you are actually guilty of 'failure to declare'.

You may have mitigating circumstances, they do not change your guilt of the offence, they can be used to ask for a reduction in the punishment.

If you plead guilty you can submit proof of the mitigating circumstances (I don't open letters and here is medical evidence why, evidence why my spouse does not open my mail for me if I have a medical condition that prevents me, statement of impact points/losing license will have on your job) and this may result in a reduced punishment. It won't change your guilt of the offence of 'failure to declare'.

If you are determined to attempt to challenge this you need to speak to a lawyer who will advise you of any grounds you may have to plead not guilty, if you plead not guilty you will need to present in court. I suspect the best a lawyer can do for you is to submit your mitigating circumstances and ask for leniency on the punishment.

mayaknew · 05/01/2020 17:13

When I phoned the court the girl on the phone told me to plead not guilty. Did she give me bad advice?

If I plead guilty to failing to declare and not guilty to the speeding - will i still have to go to court ?

OP posts:
BrokenWing · 05/01/2020 17:20

Does it give you the option to plead separately to the two offences?

Your main objective seems to be not going to court, this may be unavoidable now. You should not plead guilty to a traffic offence you are not guilty of without speaking to a lawyer. This in itself is illegal and can result in further charges.

mayaknew · 05/01/2020 17:21

Yes it's two separate pleas

OP posts:
mayaknew · 05/01/2020 17:27

Yeah I really really dont want to go to court.

Its 120 miles away under a justice system I have absolutely no experience of and I just dont know how I would cope having to do something like that. And I dont know what I'd do with the dcs while I do.

And I am fully aware this is all my own fault.

OP posts:
AnchorDownDeepBreath · 05/01/2020 17:41

When I phoned the court the girl on the phone told me to plead not guilty. Did she give me bad advice?

She shouldn't have given you advice.

You can mention mitigating circumstances on your guilty plea. You would explain there about your anxiety, and that you didn't open the letters, and whatever steps you've taken to make sure that this can't happen again. There's a box on the form for this. Usually you'd return everything to the court by post, and not have to attend the court in person. They will sentence you in your absence, and write to you with the results, unless they have summoned you to appear. That usually only happens if you are at risk of losing your license.

If you contest the charge, you will send a plea form, and then have a first hearing and your trial. You don't usually have to attend the first hearing, but you would attend your trial, it won't go ahead without you.

If you want to plead not guilty, get some legal advice from someone qualified, and that potentially could accompany you. I don't think your grounds for not guilty will be very likely to succeed - you have mitigating circumstances for not complying with the law but you are guilty of the offence. Usually, not guilty pleas are people who can prove that they didn't get the letter, or that they replied but the police didn't receive it, etc.

I hope that helps a bit Flowers.

SeemsSoUnfair · 05/01/2020 17:53

@AnchorDownDeepBreath I assume that advice is for the 'failure to declare' charge? The separate speeding charge the op must plead not guilty too?

AnchorDownDeepBreath · 05/01/2020 17:55

Thanks @seemssounfair, you're right, I totally forgot to reference the second charge Blush

ProfessorSlocombe · 05/01/2020 18:00

You can mention mitigating circumstances on your guilty plea. You would explain there about your anxiety, and that you didn't open the letters, and whatever steps you've taken to make sure that this can't happen again. There's a box on the form for this. Usually you'd return everything to the court by post, and not have to attend the court in person. They will sentence you in your absence, and write to you with the results, unless they have summoned you to appear. That usually only happens if you are at risk of losing your license.

However, the OP still has to ensure it's their DH that gets the points and penalty for speeding. That isn't going to happen without a court appearance as far as I can see. And their DH will at the very least need to provide a letter or documentation that they accept this version of events. Even then I can imagine a court requiring the DH to attend in person.

I can't emphasise enough how this can be viewed by some as an attempt to pervert the course of justice. Just because the OP seems a nice person, and few of us might have the optics to see it that way doesn't change that fact. Courts are not quite as dim as some people (especially criminals for some reason !) think they are. And one of the most common tricks in traffic offences is to try to swap points between partners. Not only is this obviously perverting the course of justice, but there is a wider public policy at work here. Drivers who try to avoid bans by swapping points are axiomatically shit drivers who really should never be let loose on our roads anyway. By evading the system intended to keep them off the roads, there is a very real danger they will eventually go on to kill. Which is why it is so serious.

As I have already said, I am sure none of that applies here. but crucially the court doesn't know that.

BrokenWing · 05/01/2020 18:12

However, the OP still has to ensure it's their DH that gets the points and penalty for speeding.

Yes, she will do this by pleading not guilty to speeding and pleading guilty to failure to declare.

For the failure to declare guilty plea she will not need to attend court.

For the speeding charge not guilty plea, she should put in the mitigation her dh was driving. Hopefully court, won't require her to attend for this and they will then contact dh to ask him to confirm he was driving. She needs to plea and wait and see what the court does.

mayaknew · 05/01/2020 18:21

Ok but neither dh or I have ever had any points or anything like that before so will that help the court conclude that we weren't trying to swap points?

OP posts:
DontLookBackIntoTheSun · 05/01/2020 18:26

The court will not care who was driving, it is too late for that to matter. It would only be perverting the course of justice if OP had replied to the s172 notice naming the wrong person.
Plead guilty to failing to identify the driver, and the speeding charge will be dropped.

SeemsSoUnfair · 05/01/2020 19:07

@DontLookBackIntoTheSun the OP says she had been asked to plead separately to the two separate offences - speeding and failure to declare - what are you suggesting she enters for the speeding? She has to put something.

titchy · 05/01/2020 19:11

Guilty to the not declaring the driver, not guilty to the speeding offence. I don't see why a court would think your dh was trying to take the points for you - the photo evidence should prove it was him! Unless you look very similar....

SeemsSoUnfair · 05/01/2020 19:13

Ok but neither dh or I have ever had any points or anything like that before so will that help the court conclude that we weren't trying to swap points?

I think it's highly unlikely they'll think this as long as you plead honestly. You haven't pleaded guilty to an offence you haven't committed, you haven't said you were the driver, so they can't accuse you off this.

DontLookBackIntoTheSun · 05/01/2020 19:14

Not guilty to the speeding as it wasn’t her. That charge will be dropped as she is pleading guilty to failing to identify the driver.

ProfessorSlocombe · 05/01/2020 19:14

Guilty to the not declaring the driver, not guilty to the speeding offence.

So how does the DH get the penalty now ? Someone has to. (Unless the OP is a celebrity or policewoman ....)

titchy · 05/01/2020 19:25

So how does the DH get the penalty now ?

Because she'll write to say that her dh was driving.

DontLookBackIntoTheSun · 05/01/2020 19:34

Nobody will get the penalty for speeding as the prosecution will not be able to prove who was driving.
Even if it could be proved that it was her DH driving, it is almost certainly more than 6 months since the speeding offence occurred, so it is now too late to lay a charge against her DH.
It would probably have been 3 points and a fine. She will be convicted of a more serious offence of failing to notify the police who the driver was, which carries 6 penalty points and a larger fine.