Court Order Not Clear

[JoJo2106]

Hi,

There is a CAO in place in regards to my son who is 2.

In regards to Christmas it states Ds is to spend Christmas with each parent on alternate years. Christmas eve 2pm til 2pm Christmas day (This year DS is with his dad Christmas eve)

But the order also states (and this is the part I am unclear about) that the father will have an extra 4 days during the Christmas period or an extra 2 days where these take place immediately before or after arranged contact time.

My ex and I have no communication other than via a communication book as there has been Previous DV. My ex has wrote in the book today that we need to discuss Christmas, he is saying that the order means he is to have extra nights whereas I read it as days in the order as it doesnt state overnights. And is saying he wants 2 whole extra nights directly after his full weekend with Ds Christmas week which will be 4 overnights in total. I am.barely going to see DS if this is the case as he is only going to be home at 2pm Christmas day then boxing day then will go again an wont be returned until new years eve. This is not suitable for me as we as a family have plans to visit other family members due to ds hardly been at home Christmas week.

The thing is I remember my solicitor saying when we came out of court that this is all to be mutually agreed between ourselves and the order is not very clear. So I am just wondering how this order sounds to other people? As in it saying extra days, whereas my ex is saying it is nights. My solicitor also said that the Christmas period is usually classed as been over a 2 week period so surely these days can be taken at any time during that period and not just when my ex says so.

He is a very nasty person and bullies me on various subjects frequently In this contact book and tries to still control our lives. Dont want to spend the next 4 weeks trying to arrange this. I can see it having to go to mediation to be honest as he will never agree on anything I say or suggest. Plus he is under the impression its nights and I think it means days so it's very difficult.

I will have to contact my solicitor for him to clarify this order but I will worry all weekend until I can speak to him so just wondered what others think of this?

The wording '2 or 4 extra days' certainly is 100% open to interpretation. A day can either be 'dawn to dusk' or a '24 hour period'. You could take it either way. If someone says "I'm coming to spend a day" you'd interpret it as not staying overnight. If someone says "I'm coming to spend 4 days" you'd certainly interpret it as staying overnight.

If the object was to make it less stressful to the child, I can see that 2- 4 overnights would probably be better than 2-4 days of pick up/drop off every morning/evening.

It's up to you to decide how 'hard and fast' you want to be. Just be prepared for it to end up back in court for a stricter, more 'spelt out' schedule if the two of you aren't able to reach an agreement.

Yes it definitely is very unclear isn't it. The thing is though it can be anytime over the whole Christmas period which my solicitor said that's usually a 2 week period so the days could be scattered rather than him having 5 overnights that week and me 2 which I feel is very unfair.

This is the problem with the order not been very clear we are both interpreting it as how we both see it. I assumed if the court meant overnights the order would have stated nights and not days. So annoying that we will most likely have to go to mediation over this.

How will things look next year?

@IDontBelieveYou how do you mean? It's the same for every year. I need it clarified as to whether it is days or nights though.

So this year you would only get 2pm Christmas Day til 2pm Boxing Day?
But what about next year?

To be honest you’re very short on time to sort this out if he won’t agree; you’re unlikely to get a court hearing before Christmas and you wouldn’t necessarily “win” that anyway. Spending time with his father will take priority over visiting your family. Perhaps agree this year on the condition that he agrees to the days you want next year.

He can't dictate which extra he has? I would say they are overnights but you can say DS is not available on x y z but he can have his additional 4 nights whenever he likes in the 2 week period which runs from A to B and obviously next year he will get 1st choice on days because DS will be with you for Christmas itself.

Ah sorry I thought you meant about the extra days. This year he is with his dad from 2pm Christmas eve until 2pm Christmas day. I have ds boxing day then he goes with dad again for usual weekend contact which is Fri 5pm til Sunday 6pm but dad is wanting 2 extra nights after that which is 4 nights in total plus overnight Christmas eve which is 5 nights in total. Those extra days he was awarded can be anytime over the whole Christmas and new year period so basically I dont agree to those 2 extra overnights right after normal contact as I am barely going to see ds at all apart from half of Christmas day and boxing day and that's it until the following week if he has those 4 overnights.

I was expecting it to be days as that's what it says in the order not overnights and assumed they would be scattered over the Christmas period not to do all at once.

Next year arrangement is I have ds Christmas eve and dad collects 2pm Christmas day until 2pm boxing day.

I’ve got to be honest he doesn’t sound like the only controlling one in this scenario.

Quibbling over the odd night here or there, and at Christmas. A very sad state of affairs.

Like I say, you’ll likely get nowhere with your position this Christmas as it would be almost impossible to be heard before Christmas if he won’t agree with you. I’d work towards finding a mutually agreeable arrangement.

Believe me he will quibble over anything and everything. I get crap over something however minor every single week. I have been told to ignore it as it is extreme. It's like he thinks of things every single week just to keep up conflict in the book. We have zero contact and my mum does all handovers away from my house because of past DV.

The thing is is that the order basically leaves it open for us to sort out ourselves when these days happen so he cant just dictate when they will be we do have to agree. He hasn't even asked if we have plans and has basically just said this is what is happening. He is saying they are overnights also but the order does not state that. So in this situation I really dont know what's going to happen. I do have to see ds over Christmas but the way he wants it I'll barely see him.

I guess the mistake was not finalising this earlier, a lesson learned for next year.

I guess he has family stuff he wants to do too...

Presumably he will just not return DS if you disagree so I would just focus that at least he only gets to use 2 out of the 4 days! Make your family plans around that.

The only thing you will be able to prevent is him have those extra days before usually contact. Next year you need to "agree" much earlier on.

I think what IDon't means is how will this work next year when you have him 2pm Xmas Eve to 2pm Xmas Day. If it's interpreted your way, then your ex will have NO overnights at all next year during the holiday break? Unless he has EOW or whatever already.

But I admit I'm having a problem 'visualizing' the schedule as it is for the 2 weeks this year.

I agree, you'll most likely need to go back to mediation, but that probably won't be able to happen before the school break starts. And it seems unlikely that either of you is going to change your mind so you'll most likely end up back in court which will (I assume) take months. And you take the chance that things will be 'set in stone' in a way that you don't want.

I think you're going to have to try to work out an interim solution for this year, with him understanding that you DO consider it 'interim' rather than 'precedent'. What else is there to do? Otherwise you're faced with you either refusing to let DS go to his dad's or his dad refusing to return him home.

Surely you can’t already have made plans if you’ve been told you need to agree the dates?

You’ve posted about similar before with dates for your DSs holiday with his dad. Refusing to agree dates, essentially stonewalling, won’t work.

Maybe instead of blaming your ex, take a look at how you can improve things too. Compromise a little. Repeatedly going back to court is the worst possible thing for your son.

Yes we are invited to family for a meal etc as ds is only at home for half of Christmas day and boxing day then that's it as he goes with his dad for full weekend after that. So when are me and my family supposed to do anything over the Christmas period with ds if his dad has him the majority of the time?

And no I wasnt refusing to agree dates for the holiday. He was allowed holiday contact starting from September and he had until the end if this year to take this holiday so essentially this could still be in play but ds went beginning of October.

Family stuff the weekend before Christmas or meld into New Year?

It's seems clear that over the Christmas period he can tack 2 days onto his normal contact or have a 4 day period otherwise but Christmas could mean from 21st or so through to the 2nd January. The best option is to negotiate with him with a counter suggestion and reasoning eg ok you have from midday 27-midday 29 is this ok but I need them home because family are here on 29.

Involving solicitors could result in no room for negotiation and you loosing out (plus a hefty bill). It's worth trying

You say that the order says "or an extra 2 days where these take place immediately before or after arranged contact time." - well that's just what he's asking for, 2 days after his normal contact. Given normal contact involves overnights, I think it's a reasonable assumption that extra contact does too.

I don't think he's asking for anything too unreasonable. You presumably have your son for the weekend before Christmas, then from Christmas Day to 5pm on the 27th, then for new year and the following weekend.

I interpret it as overnights, because of the 4 or 2 bit.

Reducing it to 2 if before or after normal contact means a block of solid 4 days(and overnights) or there can be a block of 4 days and overnights. Either way it's limiting to a max of 4 days in one go.

I can see how you might interpret it as 4x 1 daytime here and there, but if that was the intention I don't think there would be a bit reducing it to 2 days if tacked on to normal contact.

Does that make sense?