Final hearing with grandparent

[user1499775533]

So, I haven’t posted on here for a while but fast forwarding from my last thread we attended a Dispute Resolution on Wednesday. We were unable to reach an agreement with cafcass. On the applicants application she requested a whole day with my elder Daughter and regular contact with the baby that she has never met, prior to court she was offered to meet in a play centre with both children but refused because she wanted to go to court to get orders!!! I have offered 4 hours with my eldest Daughter but she has now stated she would like 8 hours with my eldest Daughter, part of Christmas, birthdays and parties etc. Her demands are making it hard to negotiate anything for the baby so at this point I feel that introducing another child to her could be emotionally damaging too. Cafcass have said they can no longer be involved so it has gone on to a final hearing. Cafcass have spoken to my ex partner and he has said he can arrange contact with my baby and his mother but didn’t turn up to the hearing and definitely won’t for the final hearing in February. He holds no PR for the baby but has it for our eldest Daughter. I have told cafcass I don’t agree to this as he has not spent enough time with the baby to be just taking her off, she wouldn’t cope and he himself has said she’s too young. The applicant sees my elder Daughter every third Tuesday of the month with her son. The reason my ex chose this day is he doesn’t go out with friends, the applicant is asking for a weekend visit now but there is no way I would be handing my Daughter over to him then as if he did turn up he’d be intoxicated. Cafcass have said he is responsible for pick ups and drop offs. I am sticking to the 4 hours on the Tuesday as it’s safer for my Daughter. The applicant and I have no contact so to be taking my Daughter all day with no contact wouldn’t be great. She’d probably end up in pubs with them and god knows where. I now have to prepare my statement for court but i feel I’m going to be made to do what the applicant wants regardless because she paid for an application so it will need to be fulfilled by the court.

It states on the cafcass recommendations that the children will be emotionally effected by the feud between us and I agree. It also says permission was granted before so it may well be granted again but nothing about orders being made. I don’t feel this application is even about the children if I’m honest and cafcass have made a note that I feel it’s just being spiteful and that I feel orders are invasive and controlling over my children as it’s not necessary. Contact was never refused for my elder Daughter, she just wanted it at her home, that was the first step to the control and manipulation and it will continue for aslong as the courts will keep accepting applications. It would of been too easy to try and resolve matters without court but this is far more enjoyable to the applicant to see me stressed and anxious. It’s just a big game where my children are the centre of it. I’m all for family but shouldn’t boundaries be respected of the parent and I’m sure any grandparent just seeking access would accept anything just aslong as they get to see the children and you wouldn’t want to drag children through the court system being so young. I understand it’s about the children and their right to see a paternal family too but at this point I don’t feel it’s beneficial or will be in the future. Cafcass have noted the race problems I have had with her in the past and my Daughter repeating comments about me she has heard from the applicant, and I 100% know at some point in the future my own children will be turned against me due to this and perfectly legally so. And this is the applicants intention.

I’m going to be made to do what the applicant wants regardless because she paid for an application so it will need to be fulfilled by the court

The courts won't give her what she wants just because she has paid for an application. It doesn't work like that. They will look at your children's best interests. If the court agrees that it is not in their best interests to have contact with their grandmother they will not order contact.

What prh47bridge said. So you need to focus on why your suggestions are the best for the children. Forget the 'taking to pubs part' as you won't be able to prove it.
The applicant sees my elder Daughter every third Tuesday of the month with her son. Why is this best for her? Does she do activities other days? Would it affect her schooling? Does it fit around your work schedule etc?

She’s the paternal grandmother. I’m sure they’ll say it’s in their best interests to see her but in the long run I think it will be damaging to both of them. The cafcass officer said the children have a right to know the paternal family but that could be debatable. The applicants husband was charged with domestic violence in the 1970s but it’s spent now, my ex partner has problems with drink and drug misuse and has been charged with affray in 2018 plus other offences not related to safeguarding. They’re basically a family of drunks and criminals. I told the cafcass officer I do not want my Daughter in pubs and I need to know where she is and who she’s around. After the cafcass officer spoke to me she spoke to the applicant who had then gone on to say she’d like 8 hours plus these parties etc which will be in pubs. The cafcass officer didn’t say anything but could tell by her tone that she has a rough idea of what’s going on.

I appreciate your issue here as I think it's awful to made to handover your children to a GP when their own father doesn't seem interested but, your slant on it wont work in court. Bringing up offenses from the 70s wont make a difference. Talk about the now. Document things the older child has said, document threats/harassment/unreasonable behaviour, talk about why you have offered what you've offered and how that is best for your daughter. Talk about anything culturally relevant so do you take your children to church for xmas for example. I think now is the time to leave behind what you may think to be true and concentrate what will have a bit more weight in court.

The Tuesday has been happening for 2 years and I have expressed to Cafcass and at the first hearing that my Daughter has a home and family life at the weekends. Cafcass put on their notes that she was asking for an increase of 4 hours but on her initial application she’s stated a whole day, now 8 hours and occasions. Isn’t that what fathers would ask for?

She’s been harrsssing me for 2 plus years and the police have said they’re should be no direct or indirect contact which is why my ex is to be responsible for pick ups. I just feel that after 2 years I still have no idea where my Daughter is and I’m expected to hand another little one over to hear negative comments about me. I emailed the applicant prior to what my Daughter said asking her not to talk like that around her, that will be evidence I suppose and all of the emails offering to meet in a play centre. She’s also started telling my daughter that she cries when she’s not there, this is emotional manipulation and my child is not mature enough to deal with this and shouldn’t have to

She was offered to meet with both children which I think is reasonable and would of saved going to court so what did she do, wait until my baby was 1 and out in an application to have a whole day with my elder Daughter and regular with the baby ensuring that my offer wouldn’t fall into this. This is where her lack of boundaries and controlling side shows. From what I’m aware it is going infront of lays justices and a legal advisor so no judge and from previous experiences I’ve found the lays justices to be more for the side of the applicant but the legal adviser to not be too supportive of applications.

I am a JP. I do not sit in family court but I have observed family court with bench of lay magistrates. There is considerable variation amongst magistrates which means the decisions are no easily predictable. I would strongly advise you to get legal advice for the hearing so that a solicitor can make absolutely clear to the court what is in the DCs best interests. It will be worth the money to ensure that you do not end up with an order that is difficult or unworkable for your DC and you.

I’ve already suggested to the court that I will be bringing a solicitor with me for the final hearing. I think that extra bit of support would be needed too. In regards to my elder Daughter I know that orders will be made so for the rest of her childhood she’s under the control of the court and the applicant, I would of liked my children to be free to be children and extended family to visit as and when but the applicants actions have made it impossible. In regards to the baby I’m unsure what will happen as the applicant has never seen her and my ex holds no PR so in legal terms does that give him a right to take my baby without my consent? Or if the court order that then I have to let her go? As a dedicated mother to my children, I can honestly say this is probably one of the worst things that can happen to you. The worst part is that the applicant knows the only place to hurt me the most is with my children

The best interests of my children is to not be involved in a dispute like this and there right to not hear comments about their mother, possibly racial comments too in the future. Scary that any family member can initiate a feud and can then apply for applications to remove your children from your care at their request. Prior to going to court in 2017 the applicant was having regular contact aswell as going out for meals and bdays and Christmases at our home which was more family felt and beneficial to my Daughter, now she literally gets the basic contact, I’m not legally trained but I think her recent demands of occasions are what divorced parents would get and so I’m not too worried, more upset if I’m honest. My ex and myself tried to persuade her to not go through with court in 2017 due to all of these problems but she was adamant that she was going to go to see what the judge gave her not what we as parents were offering or saying.

Also on the cafcass statement it clearly states I have reported that psychologically all of these letters, court threats and harrassment has effected me, I too let the court know how the emotional impact has effected my day to life, the applicant is aware too and enjoys doing it I’m sure but from just having a quick look at the children and families act 2014 it seems that under these circumstances it doesn’t fall into the ‘best interests of the child’. I presume this is the big red book that the legal advisor pulled out at the first hearing.

Can those who confidently told OP in one of her earlier threads that the grandmother definitely wouldn't get permission to pursue her application please make an appearance on this thread to offer the benefit of their expertise?

She got permission to continue her application and that was because cafcass suggested that the court had granted permission before so may well want to grant it again. There’s no guarantee she is going to get orders on my children and I will continue fighting my hardest to ensure that doesn’t happen. In the long run my children’s minds will be manipulated and effected just as much as mine.

At the first hearing the legal advisor made it clear that he didn’t support permission and tried his best with reading paragraphs from the children and family act, ultimately it was the lays justices that granted permission.

From what I’ve researched I think most grandparents get the permission, unless there’s something flagging up on the safeguard checks.

Plus the fact that you didn't turn up to the court last time...

Well, the applicant was informed I wasn’t going to be attending 5 days before by her son but went to court and told the legal advisor that my ex had called me and I had said I wasn’t going because I wasn’t interested, the legal advisor read that and then said they had recieved my email and it was accepted by the court. I think this made him angry. She also had falsely put on the application that her son lives with her but when questioned by the legal advisor it turns out she doesn’t know where he lives either! She could have 20 more grandchildren out there to put applications in for, who knows!!!

My actual wish is that he would have more children so she could focus on them and maybe try ruining another mother. My children will benefit nothing from a relationship from her, they’ll only learn bad language, disrespect towards me and won’t have a proper sense of family and togetherness. And this is just how her own children have turned out!

So, scrolling through my emails I have so many nice ones I have sent offering contact with both children and addressing her over the threats she’s made and generally trying to make the peace. I can prove her unreasonable behaviour and the arranged phone call where she became abusive and her racist remarks. Does anyone know how the court would accept these emails in order to act as evidence??

These emails even date back to 2017 where I’m begging her to not drag my daughter through the courts and asking her why she’d stopped replying to texts or to come and see my daughter.