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Possible dodgy will execution shenanigans....Advice please!

92 replies

HeyPesto55 · 18/11/2019 21:35

Oh wise mumsnetters, please help me piece this one together as it's somethjng I know very little about.

My lovely, wonderful grandmother (whom I'm very close to) was in a very loving and mutually adoring relationship with a lovely man she met in her village. They were together later in life (late 80s) for some time until he sadly passed away 4 years ago.

Said man had 2 grandsons, nether of whom he saw very often. And neither of whom lived locally. Not really relevant. Just background.

The eldest grandson was executed of the will. Lovely man had told my lovely Grandmother in certainty that he would leave her 1/3 rd of his estate in case she ever needed nursing or care fees. And because he felt that's what he wanted to do. He didn't see grandsons that often. And no great grand children. In fact both my grandmother and lovely man changed their wills at the same time. She could be mistaken in the split but I doubt it very much. She's super smart (and very non money grabbing!)

Just after lovely man's passing, my grandmother receives a letter from the eldest grandson with a personal cheque. The amount is nowhere near a third of the estate. It's clearly a token amount.

My Grandmother tried to ring the solicitors to clarify and was told to speak to the grandson. Now there could be a mix up here but all seems a little squiffy to me.

Do executers send personal cheques? Do you not get a copy / receipt from the solicitors?

How would we ask for evidence of what was in the will? Help!

OP posts:
HeyPesto55 · 22/11/2019 08:45

Mrsjg, looking at a bit of research, there are some criminal cases were people have been prosecuted for theft but it seems pretty uncommon. I can only find 1 or 2 cases online so they must have been lucky and got an enthusiastic police officer!

I suppose the only other avenue is a personal claim for money in the civil courts. Which is pricey. It also isn't anything my nan would consider (or we would consider putting her through).

I suppose if anything dodgy HAS gone on, they were banking on her being too old to understand or her passing away before it was challenged. Which makes me really mad!

OP posts:
mrsjg · 22/11/2019 09:42

Thanks HeyPesto Smile

prh47bridge · 22/11/2019 10:58

I can only find 1 or 2 cases online so they must have been lucky and got an enthusiastic police officer

It could equally be that most people don't take cases to the police. They can only prosecute the cases they know about.

I suppose the only other avenue is a personal claim for money in the civil courts. Which is pricey

For the amount of money involved it would be pricey. If the executors have taken the money that was left to your grandmother I hope they will cough up quickly when they realise you are on to them.

ajandjjmum · 22/11/2019 11:05

Always wondered, if you obtain a copy of a Will or Probate, are the executors informed that soandso has been sent a copy?

OP - I would feel as you do. If you do send a letter first, make sure it is recorded delivery, and that you give them a date to reply by.

ChicCroissant · 22/11/2019 11:07

Have you spoken to the Probate Office that authorised them as executors, OP? Because it would be worth doing - you have to fill out a form and go for an interview with the Probate Office and they may be able to stop them being executors (of estates requiring Probate) in the future?

ChicCroissant · 22/11/2019 11:08

Sorry, just read that and it's not clear - if you are nominated as an executor for an estate that has Probate you need to fill out the form and be interviewed. Not for a complaint about an executor!

But there may be a way of barring them from being executors in future, as the interview is to prove you are fit for the task.

HeyPesto55 · 22/11/2019 11:10

Thanks everyone, I will definitely send a letter.

Both grandsons named as executers but the original cheque that arrived for the token amount only came from one grandson so it will be interesting to see whether the other grandson was party to it / whether it was a joint decision.

Do you think I should send the letter to both named executors? Or just to the one that sent the cheque. What puts more pressure on him, do you think?

OP posts:
HeyPesto55 · 22/11/2019 11:12

ChicCroissant, that is a good idea. Someone down thread suggested calling them and that they were helpful. I think I'll do that.

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 22/11/2019 11:15

Always wondered, if you obtain a copy of a Will or Probate, are the executors informed that soandso has been sent a copy?

No.

Do you think I should send the letter to both named executors? Or just to the one that sent the cheque. What puts more pressure on him, do you think?

Both. They are both equally responsible for whatever has happened.

Supersimkin2 · 22/11/2019 11:19

It's fraud, unless they can prove otherwise, and it's a very, very big deal. If a solicitor had anything to do with it they can be struck off. Otherwise it's prosecution for theft, which the police can help you with.

Yes, theft is a criminal offence.

ChicCroissant · 22/11/2019 11:38

Both, as both executors are legally liable as prh47bridge says.

It might have been me that suggested ringing the Probate Office - my DH has been an executor a number of times now so I am aware of what needs to be done when you are there. There is a phrase that they use about being fit to act (I can't remember the wording now) but they haven't done the job properly so it could and should affect whether they can be approved for the role in the future.

RandomMess · 22/11/2019 11:42

For all you know one grandson has kept 2/3 of the estate and the other blissfully unaware...

ChicCroissant · 22/11/2019 11:51

No, the estate would have been valued for the interview at the Probate Office. They are both aware and both liable.

I wonder what they declared to HMRC about the estate? It may have been liable for Inheritance Tax.

FinallyHere · 22/11/2019 12:57

but they haven't done the job properly

Unless the beneficiaries press their case, there is really nothing to stop the executors taking their time. In your case, I would send the letter asking whether the final distribution of assets has yet completed and, if not, when that is expected to complete.

They may be taking their time, but they haven't done wrong unless and until the final distribution has been completed without your relative receiving her share.

If they admit that the distribution is complete without your relative receiving her share, then you really do have evidence of fraud.

If not yet, your letter may be enough to remind them of your relatives claim.

All the best.

HeyPesto55 · 22/11/2019 13:15

FinallyHere, this is a very good point. I suspect there is a chance they are holding off in the hope that when my GM passes away, they get to keep it all. Maybe.

I'm struggling to rationalise any of it to be honest. But it's been 4 years. And the house sold over 3 years ago.

Wish me luck with the letter. Thank you all for your invaluable advice. I feel much more determined that I did.

OP posts:
FinallyHere · 22/11/2019 13:22

feel much more determined that I did.

Good, all the best. Oh and FB let us know how you get on. 😀

EveHolt · 10/12/2019 13:33

@HeyPesto55 did you get anywhere OP?

BeginningToLookLikeChristmas · 10/12/2019 14:54

Good luck!

TheresWaldo · 10/12/2019 21:07

I am checking in for feedback too as it seems someone has mightily taken the piss here!

TreeTopTim · 10/12/2019 21:45

Just read this for the first time today.

It always saddens me how greedy some people get with money. Hope you find answers.

HeyPesto55 · 12/12/2019 10:48

Hello everyone.

Thanks for all the check ins. I have formulated a plan with my uncle and he has spoken to his solicitor. He is keener to go down that route I think, though I am less keen because it will just be added cost.
And naturally i want to uncover the truth myself!

So I'm leaving it til after Christmas but I was going to send a letter (obo my uncle / nan) as PP's had suggested here:

Send a letter to both executors (in case one was fiddling the other one) asking for a breakdown / statement on how the estate was split (apparently a legal requirement).

I may fall at the first hurdle trying to find their addresses. Which would be a bit of an anti climax Wink

I have found out though that eldest grandson has since built a house. So might explain where a proportion of the money has gone.
And that he mentioned the split to my uncle just after Lovely Man's passing, so must have been meaning to pay it at one point and then since changed his mind.

Hmmmmm. Still can't get my head round it all. And still questioning if there could be any innocent explanation...

OP posts:
HeyPesto55 · 12/12/2019 11:01

Have just reread this thread and the advice is amazing actually. Thank you all so much.

I will definitely call the probate office after the letter is sent.

Reviewing some of the messages on this thread, I also think there could be a chance of some complicated tax arrangement or debt owed that meant part of the estate was paid elsewhere. Or some hold over the property? It would have been unknown entirely though to Lovely Man as apparently he was quite specific on the size of the estate with my Grandmother.

But you never know. And like one poster mentioned, best to not think the worse of people until you know!

OP posts:
cupoftea84 · 12/12/2019 11:48

It could be a criminal matter if it amounts to theft or fraud.
I'd seriously consider reporting to the police. If they tell you it's a civil matter ask when theft became a civil matter. They are massively stretched and anything they can pass off as civil they will try. The executor has dishonesty misappropriated the money by the looks of it.

EveHolt · 12/12/2019 12:29

Er yes but carry on with your sensible plan to establish the facts first!

CoraPirbright · 13/12/2019 10:04

Good luck with it OP and let us know how you get on.

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