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Boundary Dispute - how to stop it becoming messy?

28 replies

Ithinktomyself · 27/07/2019 12:47

Help. We live in a sort of terraced house with front and back gardens. Been here for two years. The front garden has fences and a line of tree stumps which seemed to sort of denote the boundary. The neighbours have a shed on their side and we put a woodshed on our side.

The neighbours think that our woodshed is over the boundary but on close inspection it is clear that in fact their shed is a good 10 inches into our property. We're not bothered except that they are telling us to move our woodshed and want to move fences to reclaim what they think is theirs.

I don't want a confrontation or a dispute. I don't care if their shed stays where it is but I do want to maintain the boundary (or get it to where it should be) and stop them harrassing us about it. They have put paint across where they think the boundary is which got onto my sunloungers.

What can we do? Where do we stand? And any advice about de-escalating the situation without being total pushovers?

OP posts:
HappyHammy · 27/07/2019 14:41

Ask the land registry for a copy of your deeds, your mortgage company might also have them you need to see where the boundaries are then there is no dispute.

Ithinktomyself · 27/07/2019 15:57

Hi - we KNOW where the boundary is, it's just that they think it's somewhere else.

OP posts:
RandomMess · 27/07/2019 16:10

Invite them around for a drink and show them the land registry?

RebootYourEngine · 27/07/2019 16:11

Are you saying that they are disagreeing with the deeds?

Ithinktomyself · 27/07/2019 16:46

Sorry, I'm not being very clear. And it's just kicked off a bit as DH went round to try to be helpful (they want to move our woodshed to give themselves easier access to the back of their shed - DH has moved things around to make this easier even though it was always possible) and they got a bit shouty.

The deeds clearly show a straight line. The neighbours are convinced that a line of trees marks the boundary but they don't - they are not straight and are obviously within our boundary. We are very very sure that we are right. The neighbours do have form for requisitioning things (they've fenced off part of the main road as theirs - not quite sure how they've gotten away with it!) and are quite bloody minded.

So they are effectively misreading the deeds (wilfully or otherwise - I'm not sure). I will invite them round to show them but it looks like they're just going to get increasingly difficult.

My big worry is that the builders are going to have to come onto our property to access their shed which is fine but they've already shown a casual disregard towards our stuff and I get the impression that they're becoming belligerent.

I just want everyone to be nice and reasonable!

OP posts:
1000000Dreams · 27/07/2019 16:54

You are saying that you know where the boundary is but they seem to think they know where the boundary is too.

Land Reg plans will give you a rough idea of the boundary but they are not definitive.

If a friendly chat won’t solve it then you could get a boundary surveyor to assess and let you know where he thinks the boundary is. You could agree with the neighbour in advance that you will share the cost and then go along with his assessment. You could even say that if you are right then they pay the cost of the surveyor and if they are right you will pay.

Boundary disputes are very expensive and getting a boundary surveyor at an early stage will help save costs. If you went to court then you’d need to get a surveyor at some point.

SavoyCabbage · 27/07/2019 16:57

How can you tell that the line of stumps is not the boundary? Where are the fences?

Ithinktomyself · 27/07/2019 17:02

Thank you - yes, that's where we are (although we both agree that it's a straight line between two points, it's just that their straight line isn't very straight!) I really REALLY don't want to get into a boundary dispute. Frankly we were quite happy with where the fences and sheds were as it was close enough and everyone seemed to be happy.

The problem comes down to the fact that they want us to move a shed that has been there quite happily for two years. I am tempted to agree for the sake of a quiet life but we've already had a few things with them where they have pushed for something and we have capitulated (there was a large tree in our garden when we moved in which they wanted to remove so we did for example). Plus it's a BIG job and DH has no time.

I really want to find a way to get this back into "friendly discussion" territory but the tone of the last meeting suggests that this isn't going to be easy. Sad

OP posts:
cstaff · 27/07/2019 17:05

If they need access to your property to do work, if they are being unreasonable then you can just refuse them access. Then the onus will be on them to prove where the boundaries are and it will cost them and not you.

1000000Dreams · 27/07/2019 17:08

I think if they are pushing for you to move your shed then tell them no unless they can prove it’s their land. And then leave it to them.

Then the onus is on them to get a surveyor or whatever, and, if they’re right, you can move the shed. Don’t go by a letter from their solicitor as they will just try it on and say it’s their land and hope you’ll move the shed. You want an expert surveyor opinion.

Also regardless of what the deeds say, either of you could acquire land through adverse possession. So even if your shed was technically on land that is over the boundary into their land, according to where the deeds say the boundary is, you could have acquired that land if you or the previous owners had been treating it as such for many years. The rules are quite complex but it’s a possibility. Don’t just move the shed if you don’t think they are right.

1000000Dreams · 27/07/2019 17:12

I wouldn’t engage with them if they’re being overbearing or aggressive about it. I’d just say you really don’t want to fall out with them over this but you believe your woodshed is on your land. Also it makes sense to preserve the status quo / keep things as they are rather than move the sheds. But if they think they can provide evidence to suggest the boundary is somewhere else then you will consider it at that stage.

RebootYourEngine · 27/07/2019 20:06

If my shed was within my boundary there is no way I would be moving it.

Ithinktomyself · 28/07/2019 12:04

As things stand we have emptied the wood shed to help the builders to access the back of their shed (they could access it before, it was awkward but doable - the builders are a big part of the problem here, they said they could do the job then didn't and are blaming us. I have made myself available to them, given them my number and asked if they needed anything while they were working - they said NOTHING to me). We are assuming that the builders will be back and I'll allow it but keep an eye on things.

I won't engage unless she does - at which point I'll try the "cup of tea over the deeds" approach. I really want to de-escalate things. Yesterday she shouted at my DH and told him he was being "bloodyminded and pedantic", at which point he walked away. Then we had comments behind the fence to her grand-daughter and a plant that she thinks is hers was cut and the remains deposited on our side of the fence (not complaining about this actually, quite helpful but clearly meant as a passive-aggressive statement).

I just want to de-escalate without being a complete pushover.

OP posts:
mummmy2017 · 28/07/2019 12:11

Ask her if you can run a rope from both fixed points to see what is what.
Then remind her better to sort this now as your horrified about people losing their homes over land disputes...

GiggleMcDimples · 28/07/2019 12:15

You mention she has a granddaughter op, how old is she? Is it more coming from her than her partner? The only reason I ask is that when my grandad first started showing signs of dementia he would make things difficult for certain neighbours, making his own rules about the shared access the one side of his garden, stopping the neighbours from using it, then made the neighbour the other side block a window up that was on the boundary (which in fairness shouldn't have been there, but wasn't causing anyone any problems). He just got very argumentative with people, finding problems that just weren't there to begin with.

Disfordarkchocolate · 28/07/2019 12:21

Think sort of capitulation never ends well OP.

GOODCAT · 28/07/2019 12:27

The Land Registry will determine the boundary for you. My father in law did this when he put up a fence separating his drive from his neighbours. It is probably the friendliest way to do this in the sense that you both believe you know where the boundary is. I can't remember the cost but father in law wouldn't have been in a position to pay much.

Ithinktomyself · 28/07/2019 14:35

The neighbours are two women, one in her sixties I think and the other in her forties (I'm guessing). It is the elder of the two who we have mostly been dealing with.

@Mummy2017 that is what we have suggested but that was the point at which she got shouty. She said she was going to ask the previous occupant of our house for the plans - we pointed out that it was the land registry that mattered. It all sort of went down hill from there.

I'm not sure that there's any dementia involved but I do think that she has grabbed hold of an idea (that some trees mark the boundaries) and is absolutely refusing to listen to any contradiction.

Nothing to report today so just leaving it alone until the builders turn up.

OP posts:
SavingSpaces2019 · 28/07/2019 16:05

I am tempted to agree for the sake of a quiet life but we've already had a few things with them where they have pushed for something and we have capitulated
Only do that if you accept handing over part of your garden to them for free.
You're 'agreement' will give them the right to claim it legally at some point if they've been using it with your permission.
When you sell, you won't be able to take it back and will have to declare it as a dispute if you do.

So don't create future problems for yourself by giving in.
Sort your boundary out properly - install a fence.
If they truly believe it's their land they can get the evidence and take it to court.
You need to stand up to these bullies.

Evidencebased · 28/07/2019 16:34

In point of fact, giving explicit permission to someone to use part of your land will never give rise to them being able to claim it by adverse possession : for adverse possession to arise, the neighbour has to be using it as of right.

But, you have grasped the most essential point about boundary /property disputes: that de-escalation is key, and the only guaranteed outcome of invoking the law is that lawyers get richer.

2 difficulties:
Someone who thinks that something is already theirs, so sees you as trying to take it off them
And, someone who jumps to conclusions, and seems incapable of seeing someone else's point of view.

Contesting the points of someone with this mindset is pointless. They will just fight harder.
You have to sidestep.

Eg, they suggest plan from previous owner, don't disagree. Agree that jointly looking at a plan would be a great idea, thank you. Then ignore their suggestion, get the actual Land Registry plan- you'll probably need to enlarge it . First look at any fixed points- eg if the boundary clearly lies at a mid point of the 2 houses, on the plan,it's position can be determined by measurement. Which you will want to check in the first instance when the neighbours are out.

Agree on everything you can, in the face of unreasonableness.
" Yes, this difficult."
"Yes, people may have got it wrong in the past."
"Yes, we need to get this sorted out."
Then present your clear evidence, from the title plan. Be as neutral as you can. 'It looks to me like it's in the middle. What does that look like you ?'

Download their deeds from land registry.
-look at their plan
-check who owns it- if both women do, say that you need to speak to both of them, in the hope the other is more reasonable.

If DH can't/won't button it, suggest he steps back.

Good luck

Perch · 28/07/2019 16:37

Put a fence on your boundary asap. FENCE.

CherryPavlova · 28/07/2019 16:43

What Evidencebased said.
Sounds like you are entirely reasonable quandary should try to continue to be so.
If it comes up again, use the land registry document to ascertain fixed points and use the coaching approach as suggested.
Do you think this point X is here? Good, I do too.
Do you think point Y is here? Good, I do too.
Oh look there’s a nice thin rope. Shall I hold it at point X whilst you take the other end to point Y? We can lay it on the ground then and mark the boundary we’ve agreed with those tent pegs that we have in the shed. You then have a clear line for your new fence, don’t you. So glad we’ve agreed. Would you like some tea?

DramaRamaLlama · 28/07/2019 16:46

You keep saying you don't want to be in a boundary dispute but you already are.

Giving over a portion of your garden to your neighbours will likely cause hassle if you want to sell in the future so best get this nipped in the bud.

You need to be proactive and assertive.

Ithinktomyself · 28/07/2019 18:51

@Evidencebased Thank you so much. That is exactly what I needed. I have downloaded both sets of deeds. I have also looked through some paperwork and I think I see where the confusion is - many years ago there was access for us across their garden (all very weird) and the boundary accommodated that but the most recent title plan shows a clear straight line. @CherryPavlova I am going to use exactly those words when I am next approached. Thank you.

DH and I are agreed to not do anything further or say anything unless they come to us. If they do, I'm going to smile, do exactly as PPs suggested and try to de-escalate while demonstrating our case. I have a ball of string handy and I will keep some nice biscuits in.

We'll see what happens with the shed and the builders. I will keep you informed. Thank you again - it's nice to have some sane, calm, dispassionate advice.

OP posts:
Bookworm4 · 28/07/2019 18:57

I’m always amazed at these threads and the sheer cheek of people. They fenced off part of the road? What in the name can be so difficult about going into a shed for these builders? What are they doing?
If I was I’d get a lovely 6ft fence up ASAP