Which court order to follow?

[unicornsarereal1]

Hi

We have a court order dated Feb 2018.
We have since been to court and was given a prohibited steps order dated Dec 2018.

Ex is now telling me that he is going to collect dd "as per the court order" the PSO supersedes the court order does it not?

I've tried calling a solicitor but they wanted to charge me £230 to give me some advice. Not sure where else to turn?

Yes it supersedes the earlier order. Unless the PSO has some kind of time limit to it then it remains in force until it is removed.

I would have expected the court to order that part of the previous order be suspended if the PSO contradicted it. Did the PSO refer to the original order at all?

Thank you both.
The PSO says it runs for a year.

The exact wording states-:

• not to instruct anyone to remove child from unicornsarereal1
• not to remove child from unicornsarereal1 *no to remove child from nursery or school

Without the prior written agreement if unicornsarereal1 or an order of the court.

This is me reads that it is in force until the end of the year - or he can see dd if I give prior written agreement or if the court make another child arrangements order at a later date?

It seems clear to me that the contact order remains in force. I hope you haven't stopped it.

without the prior written agreement or order of the court

He has a court order.

Collaborate why would the court have made a PSO that’s utterly useless if that’s the case?

@Collaborate is correct on the literal interpretation of the PSO, but it may be that it has been poorly written (not unusual) and that the intent is different. What was the intention behind the PSO application?

I have stopped contact since the pso was put up

When I showed the school they contacted the legal department who advised that they cannot hand my dd over to him until the courts have issued a new child arrangements or I gave written permission ....

I assumed the pso was to stop him taking her - otherwise it wouldn't serve a purpose to have it up?

There was a domestic violence incident between her dad and his new partner in which dd had to be removed by police - this led me to seek the pso

We then had an emergency hearing at which the magistrates were informed he had not seen dd in the interim - they ordered cafcass checks and left the pso up - cafcass haven't actually done the checks - they ordered them to be done at the hearing today

The judge said he could not put anything up against the new partner - but he could put a pso up against her dad - my ex

What was today's meeting about?

What you've quoted above states that he can't take her unannounced, he can't turn up at nursery and take her, he can't turn up at your home outside of agreed times and take her. But it doesn't restrict all contact, it allows that agreed by court order, and it doesn't state that the earlier order no longer stands.

You need legal advice on this.

Today was suppose to be the safeguarding checks from Cafcass - and to decide if the pso should be left up / to ammend contact order.

None of them happened as cafcass hadn't done the checks.

Struggling to find the £200 odd per hour to speak to a solicitor .....

of course the most recent court order is applicable and supersedes the older one.
honestly 🙈 (not aimed at you op)
don't hand your dd over. if he wants a new access arrangement he can apply to court for one or make some arrangements with you rather than trying to force the issue.

When was the PSO made?

@Mixedupmummy

That's what I thought.

The prohibited steps stops him - as he's suppose to collect from school - this means he now can't - Unless he makes an agreement with me or a court order is made after the pso.

I don't want to break a court order - however having my child removed from a property in the middle of the night because her dad and his new girlfriend cannot keep their hands off each other makes me question his parenting abilities & the safety of the home in general.

I have offered him contact, supervised / with me near by so I know she isn't in any domestic incidents and he refused.

It's so confusing - especially when everyone reads things differently

Who wrote the court order OP? Your solicitor, his solicitor, the judge, magistrates?

Presumably the intention of the order was clear when it was made and again at the hearing today - that Dad should not have any contact until checks done?

Prohibited steps made 10/12/18

Child arrangements order made 01/02/18

@MissMalice

The judge wrote the order

I was unrepresented on an emergency no notice hearing.

I explained the circumstances around what happened - he said he couldn't keep the new partner away from dd - but he could keep dad away from her which in turn kept the new partner away from dd.

He also left it open for me to liaise either dad about seeing dd - hence the whole with prior agreement of myself

@MissMalice

Today we had the hearing with a legal representative - all he kept saying was "you both have all the orders, I am not here to legally advise you as to what to follow. I'm here to move the case forwards and get cafcass checks done"

The family courts make me weep sometimes. It’s ridiculous that an order can be made to protect a child and you’d have to pay hundreds of pounds to seek clarity on an order that is quite literally ambiguous. I’ve had several orders made with ambiguous terms and it makes high conflict situations so much worse.

Obviously the usual caveats of seeking your own advice - and in your shoes I would trust the reason the order was made and I’d trust the school’s interpretation and I would consider the PSO was intended to supersede the CAO.

@MissMalice that's exactly how I feel .. I'm doing my best to keep dd safe - I've offered him contact; yet he declined. Ignored her for a month and then today after this hearing - where nothing happened - decided that actually he is having her no matter what. I guess I'll have a definite answer if he shows up to the school and they refuse to hand over - because he doesn't actually collect her from myself / our home as there's an injunction ..... it's such a confusing mess

It is - confusing for you alone and then throw in that he’s probably seeking advice and getting told that the CAO is still in place and that it also might not be depending on who he speaks to... Really poor. I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this on top of an already stressful situation.

The PSO is not incompatible with the earlier order. If the court felt that the earlier order should be suspended it should have made that clear. On the face of it the order does not prevent court ordered contact from taking place.

However OP's comments from 18:33 and 18:34 suggest that it was the intention of the court that contact between the child and the father be suspended. What a strange order for the court to make, in that case. If the court simply wanted to suspend contact it should have said so. All it would have taken was one paragraph in the order.

OP - if I were you I'd email the court asking that your email be put in front of a judge as a matter of urgency. Say, as you've done here, that you applied to court for a PSO to suspend contact, the court seems not to have done so despite the judge saying as you've posted above. Say that in view of the comments of the judge you believe that the intention of the court was to suspend contact and you have done just that.

If you have misinterpreted the order the judge is likely to let you know pretty quickly but at least you won't be criticised. Do check the order in full though. Look for any part of it that mentions the date of the earlier order.

@Collaborate @MissMalice

I've just go through the PSO with a fine tooth comb.
Order date: 10/12/18 ref: 23456

-forbidden from removing child from cafe and control of unicornsarereal1 or any other person applicant has placed the child with.
From nursery or school
From England or Wales

Attached a penal notice and then Found this line

"This order will continue until 4pm 10/12/19 or further order of the court"
Respondent can apply to vary / discharge. Otherwise order will be revised at the next hearing.

It is noted that there is a child arrangements order made Feb 18 under ref 1234. This has been superseded by the order dated 10/12/18 ref 23456.

Is that last paragraph It is noted that there is a child arrangements order made Feb 18 under ref 1234. This has been superseded by the order dated 10/12/18 ref 23456. Something you've copied from the most recent order? If it is, then that's fine. There is no contact order in place.

Yes, that was copied straight from the paperwork received from the court on the 20th December - 10 days after they issued the PSO after they had called us both in to speak in front of the magistrates.