Banned from driving for not receiving a letter !!??

[Orange89]

Hello, quite a long winded situation so apologies in advance but I would be really grateful for advice from anyone who can help or has been in a similar situation...

In May 2017 my ex-partner went through a red light on a car in my name. I moved out of my my address in May around the same date the letter from the police was sent asking for drivers info so never received the letter and at the time was non the wiser about any offence! The following Dec I found out I had an £800 fine with no details of what this was for but after lot of digging I found out this was for failure to provide driver information and that I had also received 6 points. My ex partner realised it was him (I could prove I was at work and not in posetion of the car that day) and was happy to take the points so I went to court March 2018 to defend myself against the red light and not receiving the letter as had moved (I had also proof that I had made provisions for my mail to be forwarded and that I was at work the day of the defence). So anyway, I was acquitted for the red light in court but slapped with another fine and 6 points for refusing to give information (even though I was there to explain it wasn’t me and I knew who it was!!). The whole mess was caused by not updating my log book (I had a number of traumatic events in 2017 and this was completely was the last thing on my mind!!) so after court i made sure I updated this straight away!

More recently I have received another fine and again after digging found out it’s for failure to provide drivers info.. I assumed it was for the same incident but it turns out in Feb 2018 (a month before I was in court) there was another offence for speeding. Now I can honestly say I don’t think this was me as my ex was still using the car but I’m having a hard time proving it. But regardless , the points are for failure to provide info however the letters have all gone to my old address as the second offence was before I updated my log book.

I’m due in court on the 18th feb and need advice ..

My question is... will I be peanalised twice for not updating my address within that time I had moved out even though I’ve been in court and already essentially received 6 points for this before for another offence (which may I add wasn’t me).

Also... how do I plead if I really don’t know and can’t prove who the driver was!?

I appreciate this is long winded so if I get a reply I’ll be surprised but I really need help and being banned from driving is causing me a lot of stress, I have a young baby and rely on having my car!!

Thank you

Unfortunately, as you have discovered from the earlier case, if you don't receive the request for information because you have moved and haven't updated the DVLA you are still guilty of failure to provide information. So I'm afraid you will almost certainly get another 6 points and a fine. You should plead guilty, explain the circumstances and hope the court is lenient.

If they are also proceeding with the speeding offence, that is another matter. You can plead not guilty to that and say that you believe it was likely to have been your ex rather than you. In the absence of evidence that you were driving you may be found not guilty of speeding but there is no guarantee.

The whole mess was caused by not updating my log book (I had a number of traumatic events in 2017 and this was completely was the last thing on my mind!!)

There's the crux of the issue. You didn't update the log book, which is a legal requirement. The 6 points you received before were for that offence. The red light and failing to give information of your new address are two separate offences.

This time you are again being charged for two offfences - failing to provide information and speeding. I would show the court that you updated your address immediately following your being in court the last time, and ask them to be lenient in the circumstances.

See www.gov.uk/tell-dvla-changed-address

Thank you for both your replies.

I suppose I was hoping they would be lenient as effectively I’m being penalised twice for one admin error and because it’s in a short time frame I have a totting up ban. Also the documented evidence of where the police sent the letters to my old address was in June (2 months after I received my updated log book back but after the offence in feb). I wonder if this can help my case? Also do you think it would be advisable to get a solicitor as I think I’m entitled to legal aid?

This is causing me so much stress and sleepless nights and I can’t believe I could lose my license over this when there are drivers doing harm out there receiving far less points.

Also all points are down as failure to provide drivers information but I offered up the first one and am happy to give as much info on the second.

Legal advice would probably be good. A solicitor might be able to advise you on this in a free half hour or CAB pro bono service.

effectively I’m being penalised twice for one admin error

It will play much better if you do not try to frame it in this way. The facts are that, every time you got into your car, while you had not updated the records, you were guilty of failing to provide that correct information. You have been caught 'only' twice.

Far better to accept that you have, indeed, been caught twice for not providing the correct information, recognise how seriously the court will regard it, apologise to the court for taking their time with this matter.

From there, they will be less inclined to feel you need to be punished again for failing to provide information and may well look more leniently on the case.

If you can afford it, I would get some legal advice on what to say in court so that you give yourself the best chance of leniency. Maybe not actually be represented, but have prepared an approach with someone who understands the right approach to take. It will certainly make a difference.

Any reference to an 'admin error' will not help your case. All the best.

Also all points are down as failure to provide drivers information but I offered up the first one and am happy to give as much info on the second

Unfortunately the fact that you gave information on the first one is irrelevant, as is the fact you are willing to give information on the second. You were too late for the first and are too late for the second. The law gives you 28 days to respond. You didn't respond within that time because you were unaware of the letter due to not updating DVLA with your change of address, therefore you are guilty of failing to provide information. Providing the information later doesn't change that.

Thank you all again for your replies.

FinallyHere are you a solicitor? Your reply makes complete sense on a different view on it (the laws view). I feel really depressed about the fact I’ve managed to lose my license due to bad organisation at a time in my life that was hard and now it’s going to impact me on seeing my family as much.

I will definitely get a solicitor in the hope they may guide me in what to say. I don’t know if it’s worth getting a doctors record to say I was on antidepressants at the time I moved and explain the events going on in my life, but perhaps they’ll see this as a ‘sob story’..

You should explain what was going on in your life at that time which contributed to your failure to update at dvlc. E.g. a parent died, marriage break up, birth of a baby, house repossesed, you were ill, or in hospital etc etc. These are all what they call mitigating factors. You should also explain about the previous case and that it was your ex driving. Apologise for failing to update your details and tell them it won't happen again. Ask them please to not give you 6 further points, as you have a new baby and being unable to drive will cause serious hardship. You are a lone parent etc etc. Write down everything I've suggested here, and wear a suit or a black dress with a black jacket. A few tears and lots of remorse goes a long way. Magistrates are human and understand people make mistakes. By the way there are sometimes duty solicitors at the mags court who will speak for you. But you can do it yourself. Just make sure you tell them everything in a precise non emotional way until you get to the bit where you are really sorry, when a bit of emotion will help. Try to keep it under 2 or 3 minutes though. Good luck, let us know how you get on.

And they won't see it as a sob story.

are you a solicitor

Errr, no but I have been in the dock a few times, in my much younger days. Good luck

Thank you very much, I can imagine the tears may be genuine , it’s the holding it together whilst I explain myself which is more of the struggle. Really appreciate all the advice and yes definitely planning on going smart! I will update after the 18th feb!

Errr, no but I have been in the dock a few times, in my much younger days.
Lol, thank you very much again for making realise their view on it, I would have definitely gone in on the defence otherwise !

Dvla put all the onus on the driver /owner.
I bought a new car, and part exchanged the old one to the dealer.
We filled in the slip noting change of ownership and sent it off.
Months later I was contacted as owner of old car (might have been for a speeding ticket) and I contacted Dvla to remind them that I had told them that I no longer owned the car.
But apparently because I hadn't had confirmation back from them and chased it up, I was the one at fault. Not the post office for failing to deliver my notification, not the Dvla for failing to process it. No, all down to me.
I asked where does it say that I must make sure I get confirmation back from them? On the back of the bloody form that I had sent off!
£60 fine.
Bastards.

OP Do you have any legal insurance on your house or motor insurance?

Worth checking out as you should be able to access it for free (and it doesn't usually affect your next premiums if you use it!) given that you've effectively already paid for it! Would at least save a little of the cost for you!

I have been trying to stay out of this but can’t resist. (I am a magistrate). I have to make a few points (in no particular order i’m afraid):

1. The charge is not failing to notify DVLA of change of address, the charge is not completing the letter asking for the ID of the driver. The fact that you didn’t notify change of address may explain why you couldn’t have filled it in. (More later).

1. If someone is guilty of failing to give ID of the driver (either by pleading guilty or be being found guilty after trial), then it is a mandatory 6 points, there is no discretion.

1. 12 points on your driving license within a 3 year period leads to a 6 month ban, unless you can prove exceptional hardship when it may not lead to a ban or may lead to a shorter ban than six months. Exceptional hardship is difficult to prove and mainly relies on impact to innocent others of you losing your license. Google it. You would only need to consider this if you plead guilty or are found guilty of the fail to give ID of driver charge but you should consider it first.

1. Duty solicitor in court is available to defendants where there is a prospect of custody. This offence does not carry a custodial penalty so duty solicitor would not normally be available to you.

1. The legal advisor in court (sometimes called the Clerk) is there to help unrepresented defendants and should be able to explain your options to you. They are not there to represent you but it is their duty to make sure you understand what is going on. You should be able to ask to speak to them without the magistrates present and they should give you some pointers (again not advise you but help you understand the options and consequences). You should mention you wish to do this to the usher.

1. My initial thought (and again this is not advice but my initial thoughts only on limited information) is that your main hope would be trying to claim a defence under s172 7(b) in that it was not ‘reasonably practicable’ for you to provide the information within the timescale. As you didn’t get the letter. You will not be at all surprised to hear that this excuse is trotted out very frequently and therefore it will take some evidence and luck to persuade the bench that this is actually the case. I would take evidence of everything you can, so what was going on with you at that time, that you changed the address with DVLA between the alleged offence and the date the letters were sent to you.(Can’t remember the dates but think you changed address in Feb/March and had letters sent to the old address in June?). So take DVLA notice of receipt of new address etc.

1. The defence in no 6 really splits opinion in my experience. I tend to be fairly lenient on it if people have done their best but other magistrates are not always so easy to convince. It does cause us many discussions in the retiring room. You need two out of the three magistrates on your side. I would seek the legal advisor’s opinion before offering the defence.

1. With regard to dress. Yes it helps slightly if you dress smartly but only to show that you take the process seriously. We don’t actually care what people wear, many many people turn up in tracksuits or other casual wear and we don’t treat them any differently.

So look up the defence I mentioned and also exceptional hardship.think about where you fit and whether you want to do a trial.

I am not sure how much a solicitor would add to your case and whether I would spend a fair bit of money on one but that is your choice.

Just remember to get evidence and take evidence of everything you are trying to rely on to court on the day. Nothing worse than someone saying they left the evidence at home or didn’t think to bring it.

@Orange89

PH47Bridge is a lawyer.

Really sorry you are going through this OP.

I hope it gets sorted as well as possible for you. I feel that “Update your address to DVLA” should be a regular klaxon on MN, on the ‘ Moving House’ Board etc.

A fair few people seem to get caught out.

@JustanotherJP

Thank you for your detailed response, I appreciate this. I will look up the defence and other pointers you have made and I will update after the 18th.

You are not being penalised twice for one admin error. Two offences were committed by the person driving your car. It is your responsibility to provide driver information. The law/court is not sympathetic to people who do not keep the DVLA informed of their address, nor is it sympathetic to the excuse of 'I don't know who was driving at the time'. The penalty for not providing driver information is usually more severe than the actual driving offence. Occasionally if someone attends court and admits the original offence the prosecutor may accept this and charge with the original offence and drop the 'failing to provide driver information' charge. In these circumstances it is best to try and speak to the prosecutor before the hearing. If you do end up with 12 points and potential disqualification then ensure that you explain clearly how a ban would impact on people dependant on you, your children for example, or any elderly or disabled relatives who depend on you.

Thank you @coronapop I was told almost exactly this today by a solicitor. Seems mad that pleading guilty to an offence I didn’t commit (definitely didn’t commit the first and almost sure not the second) could be the only thing to possibly reduce my points.

I just think I’ve got to resign myself to the fact I’ve almost definitely lost my license due to lack of organisation during some very stressful months. It is what it is I guess

I had a similar problem to you (but only for one offence)
I took as much info as I could to show I had moved address (tenancy agreements etc) I took log books and insurance print outs to show I was driving a different car to the one in question etc
I also provided the persons name and address who the car had been sold to.
I showed all this information to the clerk beforehand, I still had to stand up and give a brief explanation but then the clerk stood up and explained what I’d told her and it was written off, I just had to write to the DVLA to inform them that a car was still registered in my name that didn’t belong to me blah blah blah.

Not sure if that’s of any help to you but that was my experience of it.

What happened today @Orange89

Hi @JustanotherJP

I pleaded not guilty to both charges and have to attended a pre-trial on the 29th March before I’m given a trial date. My ban has been temporarily suspended until then. Tbh tho it could be more of an inconvenience as it would be better for me to have found out sooner and continue the 6 month ban now as I had someone who could have bought my car and my mum is in India for a month (the main person I need my car to visit) but maybe it could all turn out well after the 29th, who knows!

Thanks for remembering me ! I’ll have to update in April!.

Thanks for the update.

Interesting you were given a pre-trial date, with us that wouldn’t happen and you’d go straight to trial. (It would also be further away than april, we have ridiculous waiting times).

Did they make you go through the pre trial forms and your reason for pleading not guilty (we do that at time of plea) or is that what the pre trial date is for?

Seems mad you could look see your licence for this. Is your ex willing to say he was driving etc. Where did the letters go ? To his house or an old address .