Question on data rights and loans

[Hiddentruth]

All lawyers out there, can you help?

Where a loan might be wanted to be taken out by one party for their divorce fees and that loan is going to be secured on jointly owned assets can you help explain with respect to the other joint owner or indeed owners of those assets, how their data gets handled in such a scenario?

Can you explain the rights of these other owners to be credit checked within any application, to comment, object or anything else. Or even to know about it?

Normally any loan has a cooling off period. How would that work too in respect of the non applicant but somebody who is affected by it?

It would be good to get some views on this. I know GDPR changes make us all more aware but we had DPA 1998 for a long time...what would be the situation with 1998 as opposed to the 2018 DPA do you think?

All comments would be welcomed...

@greenberet - I am sceptical of your claims of abuse as you have accused me of being abusive and “passive aggressive” on this thread which is clearly entirely untrue.

You described having to pay your sons school fees out of general maintenance as your ex said he couldn’t afford extra. Sorry but that really doesn’t constitute abuse. On another thread as well as saying depression means you have to sleep all day so couldn’t work now, you said that you couldn’t work in the past as you were being paid for being a company secretary while doing no work whatsoever (which is tax evasion) so it wasn’t worth you working.

As someone who (like many people) has suffered from depression, I am sceptical of your claims. You haven’t described anything which would constitute abuse but are happy to accuse me and many others (including your ex) of abuse. That itself is abusive behaviour.

@zsazsajuju

Clearly you need to read back through and see Mumsnet intervention

There is no abuse from me! Is saying I need therapy acceptable?

People have free choice. They don't need to answer at all! They can ignore my questions and points

In the interests of full disclosure - I'm not a legal professional, I'm not a data protection professional and I've never had a litigation loan.

All that said, I've been watching this thread for a while now and it strikes me that, until someone gives the OP the exact answer (s)he wants then this will simply drag on and on pointlessly.

It seems to me that the legal bods here have given their best view based on the paucity of information they were given, and all credit to them for doing so. But there comes a point where you can't help any further.

I've found this strand interesting in many respects, not all of which are even remotely connected to litigation loans.

I'm going to check my defrosting turkey now. Merry Christmas to all.

@hiddentruth. I think therapy would be a lot more helpful than going on and on asking the same questions which have been answered many times very well by many posters. Your posts are rambling and make little sense.

It is extraordinary to say there is no abuse from you. You have been very rude to the many helpful women on this thread. I would encourage you to move on and try to have a merry Christmas.

And lol at looking back at the mumsnet intervention- your posts were deleted for being abusive! Honestly I would try to consider that you may need to listen to some other perspectives instead of name calling.

Out of whose money should the legal costs be taken is probably the fundamental issue which some are not happy about with these loans, not the general point that one spouse can incur a lot of legal costs which come out of money that might house either spouse or the children. That is why sensible spouses settle without a single court hearing and keep costs low as we did. Sadly not everyone is married to a sensible spouse.

So I think it will probably vary - most divorces are negotiated and settled and a judge does not decide who gets what. In those cases it is like any negotiation of a financial dispute - you just try to reach agreement over it which might be as in my case I pay my own and my ex's solicitor and then he got a fixed sum we agreed - our legal costs were £20k from memory - 2 law firms over 7 months and I paid each month as the bills came in.

I understand sometimes in divorce one party will have run up before the divorce large credit card bills or even since the divorce and the other will have saved a lot up so it is very unfair of course or one may not have wanted to move house and now there is negative equity in the house and they blame the spouse who wanted to move in the middle of a property crash.

I would have thought a divorce loan was just similar to those kinds of debts. If a judge is looking to see if a spouse can be housed perhaps the one with the children living with them then they will be looking at what net sum she or he will have once both side's debts are cleared so that will be a court priority - housing children.

I think one of the points above

(To say it is a cop out that lawyers need to see a document before commenting is not fiar. It is one reason it can take al ot of time to do legal work because you have read pages of documents. I just amended a contract this morning which the other side said they had just tidied up into a new document - I had to read the old document, theirs and about 20 emails and it took ages; they had missed out quite a lot of our points. There was no way to do this properly without reading everything slowly which takes a lot of time and cost just as the two men up ladders outside my house as we speak if they find more work on the gutters then we thought will charge more as it takes them m ore of today to do)

@Hiddentruth The wording of the order is crucial. The order will say what should happen to the sale proceeds, and usually says that they should be applied to firstly repay “the mortgage in favour of x”. If it is worded so as to say that it should repay all registered charges, and doesn’t mention the litigation loan by name, whether the court intended that the loan be repaid from the proceeds depends on whether it was ever declared. So if it wasn’t declared that is material non-disclosure so you can take it back to court.

You would need to put your hand in your pocket and pay for a lawyer to advise you further on this.

@zsazsajuju - what makes you think I need your opinion as to whether my marriage was abusive you have come to a conclusion based on one or two of my posts - how about reading them all - goes back to 2014 and then see if it makes any difference

I doubt it will because you already have a narrative in your head that nothing is going to budge.

Just because you have suffered from depression and abuse it does not make your experience the ultimate guide on both these issues - and the fact that you say you have makes your comments al the more derogatory.

As I have said I can only assume you get some kick out of judging somebody elses experience as so meaningless because most people with even the slightest understanding of depression or abuse would show compassion - something you are clearly incapable of - i would suggest therapy!

@Collaborate - I have a question for you which revolves around consent but I fully appreciate you may decline to answer.

My x had a generous deferred final salary scheme - which was up for negotiation. A pensions expert provided an analysis of pension benefits.

Just before final hearing x transferred benefits out of deferred pension into SIPP. To do this he needed to get a Transfer Analysis report. Bearing in mind he is expert in this area and top of his game he got a “friend” to do the report which concluded it was only beneficial to transfer out if the sum of money was invested in high risks funds for a minim of 10 years.

X refused to make this report available and only did so on day 1 of 2 day final hearing as ordered by judge.

Our FH took place in 2 parts the second due a month later was just to look at the pensions. As x’s Deferred pension was now in a SIPP the expert was required to relook at the details and inform whether I had been disadvantaged in any way as a result of this transfer prior to settlement.

I sent the transfer analysis report to the expert because I thought this would need to be looked at as part of his report.

However x said he did not give his consent for the report to be used and so it wasn’t.

I Was LIP at this point and totally beyond being able to function.

Taking into account all that has been said here about the various ways consent can be given depending on the circumstances and significance of information was it right that x could refuse or could I have argued under one of the various rules that the report was pertinent to the expert being able to give a correct valuation of the pensions and answer to the court whether I had been disadvantaged in any way as a result of my x’s actions prior to settlement

@greenberet You are confusing the issue of consent for you to send details of your husband's pension to the expert advising you (as already stated upthread, you do not need his consent to do this), with the question of whether or not the report would be admissible in court.

@Collaborate - thank you for answering

OK so I sent the report to the advisor - x and his solicitor told the adviser he did not have permission to use it in his advice?

Expert had been ordered by court to establish whether I had been disadvantaged as a result of transfer and x been ordered to make copy of his report available to me

BEing an LIP I was not familiar with nuances - but I now thinking I was taken advantage of here (again) and if I had gone back to the judge and said look you ordered x to make transfer report available - I think this needs to be taken into account in experts decision - can you order that expert has permission to use it.

Is this what I would need to have done to overrule x’s Solicitor saying there was no permission and was x’s Solicitor acting questionably here

I HAVe other issues with both expert and x solicitor - this is not an isolated incident

@Xenia - it’s not the case that we are not married to sensible spouses - but to abusive spouses who use the system aided by legals - to totally destroy us.

I made many attempt to negotiate without the need for court but when an offer was made that I wanted to accept but was advise do not to by my solicitors because I would not survive financially I foolishly listened to the legals believing they were acting in my interests and knew what they were talking about.

I got fleeced - financially I’m £150k down as a ball point - this is without taking into account other issues.

Mentally the extra year of litigation - not to mention being dumped by my solicitor at a critical point - nearly destroyed me mentally.

I find it insulting that you seem to be implying that we ended up where we are Due to not being sensible.

My x also managed to take £120k directors loan out of a company that was going down the pan and this too got taken out of the settlement. As I understand it it is not even a monetary issue to rectify this - but the judge was persuaded it was. Given that her maths did not add up in the settlement, given that she allowed my MH to be abused in court knowing how vulnerable I was I find her actions less than respectable.

IF you relate this to physical abuse so you can understand what im saying I had professional documentation confirming my vulnerability. The x did not “hit” me In court but his barrister did. The judge could witness how distressed I was but allowed the “hitting” to continue. It only stopped because I ran out the court room.

A decent human being wouldn’t allow this behaviour to go on in the street with strangers but somehow on a court room with professionals it was acceptable.

If this is “normal” practice these days then I do need therapy to get my head round this!

@greenberet

These are very important points about continued abuse through the court process. I am afraid as it is xmas eve I need to properly read the recent posts since @Collaborate talked about material non disclosure.

I would say that from what I have experienced too and observed our courts are unfit for purpose certainly on family matters.
There is disconnect between legislation and what is being allowed in court.

Financial abuse is recognised and defined. So is domestic abuse. So what is going on! ?

Sir James Munby left a legacy to task the judicial college to get its judges up to speed on domestic abuse in all its forms.

I had a vulnerable relative who was failed by our courts after being systematically fleeced by cowboy builders who befriended him and even when the police had a solid case we sat in court and the judge did not even come out to hear the case!!!!!

I could not recommend any woman being taken to court by an abusive ex to even turn up or respond at all and let the system find her in breach and do its worst because that cannot be worse than what is occurring now!

Every time I have engaged with court the harm has been multiplied. It is now such a tangle in my case the regulators need to sort it out. Behind it all...abuse and dishonesty.

If the court does not have a robust process it sticks to to ensure it knows what it is dealing with then it cannot expect people to enter the lion's den.

The mental and financial harm and compromised safety are too much to expect people to bare.

And on that I wish you all a peaceful Christmas.

Someone said. You wouldn’t allow someone to hit someone in pubic. But will do so in w court room

That is untrue

I once witnessed a man beating a woman up in broad daylight. Over and over. In a mall. With about 1000 people around. Not one. Not ONE person said anything. He repeatedly hit her. Over and over. Banging her head into a glass shop window

I came into the situation quite a bit Ayer and managed to break it up. But not one other person. Not one. Said anything. Not a word.

So it does happen.

green, I didn't say that - if you read back so my words weren't "insulting". I was talking generally - that most people settle and don't go to court and I did say that sometimes however you can't do anything but go to court however if your ex won't be sensible about it. I don't think we are really in disagreement on that.

In a sense court is always failure - particularly with arrangements for care of children. Ideally it's sorted out between parents and in most cases that is what happens.

There will also be lots of people who have engaged with the courts and got a good amount ordered to be paid to them which they did not get without court. Obviously those posting on this thread are not in that category but that does not mean court does not work for some. Litigation is often a lottery and the court system is designed to keep people out of court so these rare and hard cases that reach final hearings and with spouses able to hide assets etc are very difficult.

As C says above if a divorce loan is not declared that seems to be material non disclosure so just as if someone hid £100k they had in a separate account you could then go back to court once you are aware of it (if it has a material effect on things) and presumably over turn the order and get a settlement based on the proper disclosure.

What this thread highlights is the need for proper representation. It sounds as if both of green beret and hidden truth have been litigants in person to save money but have struggled with the process to understand the law and achieved an unsatisfactory result. Litigation is a complex area - you should no more be attempting to conduct it yourself than you would conduct surgery on yourself.

Green beret- who knows what your experience is of depression. Certainly my posts are not abusive and your claims that they are gives me some limited insight into your behaviour. In what ways were the judge and opposing barrister “abusing” you in court? What were they doing? How did you think you could represent yourself if you ha to run out the court? Sounds to me that a litigation loan to instruct counsel would have been very helpful in your circumstances both in respect of any settlement and the impact it had on you.

Litigation is not easy and courts don’t alway get it right. But equally what’s much more common (in this area in particular) is that people don’t agree with the settlement and likely would never agree with it no matter how fair the process.

@zsazsajuju

I would ask that you please reread your own posts to get a sense of their tone which is being highlighted.

I should also like to add that a lie is a lie. My case undermines the whole concept that court is an arena to sort anything fairly. It seems the place to ensure an unfair process is utilised to gain advantage.

My case has exposed the lie happily perpetrated by professionals. Court knew what it was handling and covered it up. So which court does anyone suggest sorts out lying judges and barristers and solicitors?

Hiddentruth you are being highly offensive and I can only think that your divorce has caused mental health issues and your judgemenrt has clearly been warped to the extent that you are blaming several entire professions for what are your own shortcomings. I really do suggest you engage the help of a counsellor to assist you on the road back to reality.

Having advocated hundreds of times for the underdog in many judges chambers, I have found djs to be fair and justiciable. Perhaps you should look to your own behaviour for the reasons you had what you perceive to be a poor outcome.

Thank you Jack

My case a litigation loan totally hidden throughout proceedings of 2 years. All the costs associated. It has been established it should have been declared as litigation on false pretences has occurred. Oh yes I am mentally affected by this. I am furious!

But I am far from out of my mind in the sense you propose. Data is where this started and it remains there too.

Hiddentruth, I'm not sure it's quite that clear if you are relying on Collaborate's post about disclosure. Their point was that if the court order had been impacted by non disclosure then you had a case. But that if is important which is why you are advised to get informed legal advice. Apologies if you've already done this and got the legal opinion but you appear to have spent a lot of time, money and emotional energy running down blind alleys and I would hate you to find more.

It tends to be spouses more than their legal advisers and judges who hide things in practice because the spouse has something to gain and instead the legal people can lose their career if they lie to the court.

MrsW's comment seems right to me - if there is material non disclosure which affects who got what you can go back to court as far as I am aware as in the few cases I linked to on this or the other thread where substantial assets were hidden so I presume if someone borrowed money frmo their mother or a loan company and didn't tell the othe rparty and then just paid those people back out of what that person recovered then presumably there is no skin off anyone's nose and does not affect the other spouse at all whereas if the loan comes off both parties' shares it is material to know it exists just like the mortgage on the marital home as it affects what is left to be divided between the two.

@Jubba I think you have missed the point!

@Xenia - i don’t get why you keep talking generally about “sensible” spouses when it is clear that both hiddentruth and myself have not had “sensible” spouses unless you share the same vie as @zsazsajuju who seems to disbelief everything that I am saying!

MORE to the point if she had read all my posts correctly and absorbed the facts she would know that I spent an extortionate amount on legal fees before ending up as LiP through no fault of my own at a critical time in the proceedings. This last post has just confirmed to me that she is making comments based on a flawed assumption and it not worth my time engaging

My case was difficult yes - but that does not excuse the outcome - if my legal representation were not up to dealing with my case they should have told me so
@Jack65 it is pretty worrying that you think it is perfectly acceptable to make the comments you do about a person’s mental health when you are not qualified to do so!

The reason what generlaly happens is that people can then understand it all going wrong is not the norm., Most people are very happy with their solicitors and barristers, many court hearings result in a reasonable compromise and most spouses do not lie.

The problem with long posts (and I write them myself too of course) is that people tend not to have time to read everything; so you tend to get better quick answers to one specific 2 line question. Howevcer you can post what you like just as we can all respond as we like and by all means ignore posts of people you don't think are helpful for you.

There is also a very useful general piece of advice we can give people in difficult situations which is write less and be utterly unemotive if you are writing to courts or documents for courts as however unfair that may seem that does tend to get people better results,

I don’t think so. You’re both talking absolute nonsense! You’ve been given good advice over and over. It’s just not the answer you want. But hiddentruth. If you want to lose more money going down this road. Then go for it. I don’t think you’re going to win. As many MANY people have pointed out