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Legal matters

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Child injured at actvity , follow up to previous thread.

109 replies

CharlesChickens · 29/11/2018 22:19

Some of you may remember my thread last month. I had to ask for it to be deleted, as there were concerns it might compromise legal action.
So- my dd was seriously injured at a drama class that she does out of school. She was put on a table and told to fall backwards, for other children to catch her, as a “trust” exercise. The children failed to catch her, and her head took the full force of the impact. No mats, concrete floor. She has fractured her skull and had a severe concussion. She is recovering but not yet back to normal.
The activity took place at a local theatre, and had a small voluntary committee of parents, of which DH was one. (No one as far as we know, including the chair, knew the group leader was doing these trust exercises). The activity has been run at the theatre for decades and has a good reputation locally- I trusted the group partly because I trusted the reputation of the theatre.
The group leader was not insured, and although it states on the room hire agreement ( that DH had never seen before as it wasn’t his role, and the room had at times been given free) that proof of insurance must be shown or the room will not be given, the theatre had never checked that the GL had insurance.
We have spoken to a solicitor who felt that the GL would be found liable, but as he has no insurance or assets then there is no point in suing him.
The theatre did not report the event to RIDDOR , we ended up reporting it ourselves. The response from the theatre has been shocking, they clearly do not care about my child or us as a family.
DH obviously left the committee, but the new committee have insisted that the actvity was properly risk assessed and safe, and intend to continue with the same GL. He is a professional person who works with children. They are all voluntary parents, some of whom are friends of his.
We want to ensure no other child is injured, we have spoken on the telephone to the chair of trustees, he, like all the theatre people, is extremely defensive. They don’t seem to want to talk to us at all.
How to proceed ? I’ve left out a lot of detail re the GL and his behaviour after my dd was injured, but he didn’t call an ambulance and has focused on saving his own skin. Pretty much the same response from everyone.
We have had the worst few weeks of our lives, and are upset, stressed and I’m having nightmares and not sleeping well. Dd is back at school but only part time and I’m wondering if even that is too much.
We are not sure what to do now. Any advice welcome.
Sorry this sounds so stilted, I’m trying to get the main facts down without too much extraneous info.

OP posts:
CharlesChickens · 30/11/2018 16:59

It did receive some lottery funding but is no longer funded, the children pay for sessions. The theatre receive funding for having the group as a named community group that they support. Some of the other named groups are not community groups at all, (one is a business, another a franchise) but there are two other community groups that also helped when the theatre was established and built.

OP posts:
Oblomov18 · 30/11/2018 17:26

Sorry to hear this.
I followed your last thread.
Ds2 had, the same day broken his nose at holiday club and I too was very cross.
Hope your dd is ok and you get this resolved.

prh47bridge · 30/11/2018 17:27

if they are a theatre group there are very strict rules and they are governed by child performance regulations

Those regulations only apply if the children take part in a performance for which a charge is made, or on licensed premises, or for broadcast or film. It doesn't sound like this is the case here.

His employer is the theatre group

It isn't clear whether he is running the group it on a voluntary basis or for profit but it is unlikely he is employed by the theatre group since that doesn't appear to have any independent existence. Even if he is (which seems highly unlikely) it doesn't alter the fact that there doesn't appear to be any insurance in place.

Agree whether he has insurance isn't your issue

I'm afraid it is the OP's issue. If he isn't insured and does not have sufficient assets to cover any damages likely to be awarded, taking legal action is likely to be pointless. Even if the OP's daughter is awarded damages and costs (which I would expect given the description by the OP) she may never be able to extract payment from the group leader, so she may end up out of pocket. It would be different if she had been injured in an accident caused by an uninsured driver. In that situation the MIB would pay.

olivertwistwantsmore · 30/11/2018 17:33

I have nothing helpful to add but wanted to give you some Flowers and a big hug. Your poor dd. How stressful for you all.

I suggest you get proper legal advice. The organisation sounds like it's so busy covering its own ass that it has thrown your dd under a bus.

CharlesChickens · 30/11/2018 17:44

Thank you so much to all posters for your kind words. I feel utterly betrayed by this person, who knew us and our children, and who DH had helped. Dds best friend’s mum is on a committee for an activity her child does. She is the only committee member as no one else turned up, and she was told “ oh you just have to turn up once a month” she has also had a shock at what has happened to dd, and this has prompted her to go and look very closely at what she might be held accountable for. My DH is very sensible, he set up something where students were using a space he was responsible for and he checked every tiny thing. He feels completely stupid now, but as it was set up, had been running successfully for so long, he didn’t ask about things beyond his given remit. Obviously he regrets that hugely now as things would be much simpler if he hadn’t been on the committee. He was just about to pack it in as he has too many commitments , when the incident happened.

OP posts:
chronicplainjane · 30/11/2018 18:14

Sorry if this is mentioned - is the group a registered charity? (Ie the committee members are trustees for the purpose of charity law)

CharlesChickens · 30/11/2018 18:50

Not a registered charity, no.

OP posts:
Coronapop · 30/11/2018 19:43

If you have no legal cover would your daughter get legal aid to pursue a personal injury claim?

CharlesChickens · 30/11/2018 20:38

Why would that be, because she is a child ?

OP posts:
Momzilla82 · 02/12/2018 16:58

Once she's been seen by a neurologist and her injuries catalogued, look for a local MS centre and look into hyperbaric oxygen therapy. It's very good for brain damage repair but isn't sufficiently proven for the NHS to fund. I wish you lots of luck Flowers

Karensbadger · 02/12/2018 17:12

Another shouting for you to see a different solicitor. For the group leader to act without insurance is (I think) criminal negligence. And he may well have legal liability insurance on his own house insurance so it may well be worth perusing him.

StressedToTheMaxx · 02/12/2018 17:20

Could you persue criminal charges?
Something such a child negligence. The gl should have some sort of punishment. The fact gl is continuing to do an activity that has seriously injurdered a child already is very worrying and screams neglect/ child endangerment.
( I am not a lawyer and have no clue about these things just a thought. It mean no other child could be hurt like you poor dd. )

Surfskatefamily · 02/12/2018 17:26

I would absolutely take this further. Only a lawyer can tell you if you must sue gl or theatre but nothing will change if you dont sue. And head injury cam be so serious. If the gl doesnt have assets he will be held to account in some way. Monetary or otherwise

RandomMess · 02/12/2018 17:30

I remember your first thread, glad DD is improving. I think headway is likely to help you most of all.

You May have legal cover through your house insurance and could investigating both the the GL and theatre.

Sounds like the GL was being paid to run it?

TooManyBooksTooLittleTime · 02/12/2018 17:41

This is so complicated, you definitely need specialist advice. I'm part of a committee who run a building, which is then hired out to groups (who should have their own insurance) and individuals/ children's parties (covered by our insurance).

I was under the impression if groups did not have proper cover, this could mean we were liable and any claim would come back to us /our insurance. We've not had this happen, so no idea how it would work in practise, but we are very careful to check group insurance to avoid the possibility.

To me it sounds like the theatre have been negligent in not checking the insurance, but I don't know where that leaves you and your DD. I hope she makes a good recovery and you are able to get this activity stopped in future.

RitaFairclough · 02/12/2018 17:54

I’m not a lawyer but surely if him not being insured means he doesn’t have to face consequences then no one will have insurance? After all, it sounds like the solicitor is basically saying if you do something wrong and you’re not insured, then that’s all good. Nothing can happen to you.

Also, if they had done a risk assessment surely it would have mentioned the height and the concrete floor?! Have you seen the risk assessment, OP?

I feel for you - this is horrible. But I am glad your daughter is on the mend.

prh47bridge · 02/12/2018 19:55

I’m not a lawyer but surely if him not being insured means he doesn’t have to face consequences then no one will have insurance

It doesn't mean he doesn't have to face consequences. The OP can still sue him and take steps to enforce any award made. She may bankrupt him. But she may end up out of pocket if she goes down that route - he may never be able to pay any compensation awarded or refund the OP's legal costs. She therefore needs to decide whether it is worth pursuing him.

RandomMess · 02/12/2018 20:02

As the GL is self employed (you listed this further up) I'd be surprised if he doesn't have any sort of legal cover?

prh47bridge · 02/12/2018 20:02

I was under the impression if groups did not have proper cover, this could mean we were liable and any claim would come back to us /our insurance

It depends. Your liability would not be as great as that of the group as you are more remote. In this case the theatre may have some liability as their hire agreement says they will check whether the hirer has appropriate insurance and this clearly didn't happen. The OP needs to get real life legal advice to see if this is a viable route.

Windgate · 02/12/2018 20:38

www.roydswithyking.com/our-people/richard-brooks/ at the risk of being deleted/banned this is the man to speak to. If he isn't the right specialist he will know who his. Don't waste energy on trying to work it out yourself.

CharlesChickens · 02/12/2018 21:24

Thank you everyone. It is a complicated situation, and I appreciate all who have taken the time to post and all the kindness re my dd.
I think it has been the most stressful six weeks of my life, and the past few years have been awash with people dying, parents, friends, wider family.
I am struggling to think clearly as I’m so stressed about the whole thing. The theatre hoped DH wouldn’t report it I think, as he was on the committee. However we are equally concerned about other children possibly getting injured or killed, as we are about our own daughter.

OP posts:
RitaFairclough · 03/12/2018 09:34

I get that, but her solicitor saying "it's not worth suing if he's not insured" means he's not facing the consequences. So why does anyone have public liability insurance then? Why pay out £x a month on insurance, knowing that if you do something wrong, it won't be worth the victim 's time/money/effort to sue you? It just seems something is wrong with the system to me.

RitaFairclough · 03/12/2018 09:35

Sorry, that was to prh47bridge. I have been on mumsnet for 400 years and still not managed to work out how to quote.

OP, it sounds like you've had and are still having a horrible time and I am so impressed you're managing to think of others in among all that. You sound like a very lovely mum/wife/person in general.

prh47bridge · 03/12/2018 09:57

So why does anyone have public liability insurance then? Why pay out £x a month on insurance, knowing that if you do something wrong, it won't be worth the victim 's time/money/effort to sue you

Because some victims will sue you even if they will end up out of pocket and you could face financial ruin. And, of course, if it is a matter where the compensation is relatively low, it may be worth the victim taking action against you regardless of your lack of insurance.

I have been on mumsnet for 400 years and still not managed to work out how to quote

I quote by copying and pasting the bit I want to quote then putting an asterisk on each end of the quote to put it in bold. I'm not aware of any simpler way of doing it.

FaceLikeAPairOfTits · 03/12/2018 10:16

I work in the arts, and I'm afraid it's commonplace for workshop facilitators to have no insurance, even though the vast majority are self employed. IME it is, however, very unusual for the theatre group not to have it.

IANAL, but standard practise is for the venue to ask the hirer (in this case the theatre group) to show proof of insurance. I would not expect the venue to be asking the tutor to show they individually have insurance, when their hire agreement is with the theatre group.