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Child Contact / Abduction Concern

31 replies

PictureFrame24 · 15/11/2018 01:27

I was wondering if someone would be able to give me some advice please?

My partner has always seen his daughter (10) EOW, 1 overnight per week and 50% of holidays. He was married to her mother until she was 4, and was living with them until that point so he has always had regular contact and has been hands on.

This August the contact was stopped suddenly for varying minor reasons (I feel it would be outing to state specifics but 3/4 reasons that most people wouldn't bat an eyelid at - eg. he didn't reply to a text quick enough etc)

They have been in mediation trying to get the contact re-established and to work through the issues, but to no avail as of yet unfortunately.

At the last mediation session EXW advised that she had booked a holiday for December to take their daughter abroad. EXW long term partner is originally from there and has a home there, and OH concern is that she may be planning to take her there and not bring her back, hence potentially the real reason why the contact was cut off suddenly after years for no specific reason.

He advised her that she did not have his permission to take their daughter out of the country while she was still withholding contact as he would have no way of knowing whether she was back or not (she is also withholding telephone contact so he cannot even speak to her) She has been to the same place at least 4 times per year over the last few years and OH has always been happy for her to go (even swapped weekends to accommodate / bought holiday clothes for her / put together airplane entertainment packs for her etc) so this is not something he has done lightly to deny her a holiday, rather a decision taken out of genuine fear that she is possibly going to take their daughter away permanently.

She said that as she has her passport, there was no way that he could stop her and she had every intention of taking her anyway regardless of what he says.

His solicitor hasn't been great. When mediation was failing (after 3 sessions, by which point contact had been denied for 10 weeks) he asked his solicitor to start court proceedings to get contact reestablished to which his solicitor directed him back to mediation for one more attempt to make sure that the option had been exhausted first. He is still waiting for an appointment to be arranged which is where things are currently. The trip is obviously next month now though and he fears if mediation does not work this time (if they even manage to arrange something in time) then it will be too late to do anything. It seems all his solicitor is actually prepared to do is repeatedly advise mediation and advise against taking things any further. He knows court is a last option, but he feels stuck at this point.

How does this situation work? I know the law is that all parents have to give permission for a child to go abroad, but in practice how do you actually do anything about it if the child is being denied contact with the NRP, and it is the RP who has the passport. Basically they can just go anyway?

Sorry for the long post, We're all very anxious about the situation. I am mother to this little girls 2 half siblings, and they are really feeling the strain of having not seen her for so long and it's taking its toll on all of us. Any advice would be much appreciated.

OP posts:
coffeeandrainbows · 15/11/2018 01:48

What country are they going to? If it is a Hauge country that will be a different situation than a non-Hague one.

He needs a new solicitor, now. I believe he can prevent the mum from taking his child overseas with an order (and someone will probably be along to tell you exactly which one he needs to ask for) from the court but he will probably need to do that very soon if the holiday is next month.

nogooddeedgoesunpunished · 15/11/2018 02:03

He needs to get a prohibitive steps order. This stops one parent taking the child out of the country without the other's consent. . A block can be put on the passport to prevent travel.

PictureFrame24 · 15/11/2018 02:21

Wow, thank you so much for the quick replies!

I had to google to find out but yes it is a Hague country that they are going to.

I mean it could just be another holiday like she says and he doesn't want to be over dramatic, but everything together especially the sudden denial of contact is making us all feel very anxious about her intentions...

I'll ask him to get in touch with his solicitor again in the morning - it normally takes a couple days for him to get back which is understandable with court etc, but also frustrating.

Thank you! (I tried google and nothing, wasn't sure where else to ask for advice - trusty MN!)

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Shriek · 15/11/2018 02:31

If I was planning something as dramatic, and illegal, as that, I wouldn't prequel it with harassment and stopping contact. I think anyone wanting to do that would keep quiet about everything and go, withiut eve telling you. It doesn't really make much sense that she's giving you every warning and opportunity to stop it????

Very odd behaviour if that is your plan.

Collaborate · 15/11/2018 07:35

Not all Hague countries are the same, eg if it's Poland it's a nightmare trying to get a return order.
That said, he should change solicitors (sounds like mediation isn't working) and apply to court. Not sure about the Prohibited (not prohibitive) Steps application. He'd need to speak to a solicitor who specialises in this area. What ties does she have here? If you PM me where in the country he lives I could suggest someone for him to go to.

PictureFrame24 · 15/11/2018 08:51

Thank you again for the replies...

@Shriek that is a good point actually

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PictureFrame24 · 15/11/2018 08:58

Sorry, pressed send too early!

Shriek, yes that is a good point about that. I suppose the only thing we were thinking is that they have maybe been preparing daughter for the move and are concerned she may tell her dad if she is seeing him (either accidentally or on purpose)? Moreso because the phone calls have been stopped too that makes it seem as though she is being completely isolated from him? But yes I agree that it would be easier to just go if you were planning something like that...

It's strange the scenarios that go through your head in situations like this when you're trying to find a justification for what's happening... 

@Collaborate I have PM'd you - thank you!

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Shriek · 15/11/2018 17:02

If you are that desperate you don't prepare you DC, you stop contact and go, and you wouldn't risk telling your DC, because their safety trumps all. If that is how she is feeling.
Its a very extreme thing to do, and not something that's easy or done lightly.l, but no, you would not prime the DC because of the risk.
As she's taken the DC home so frequently before I am not getting it really.
Why is mediation not working ?

PictureFrame24 · 15/11/2018 17:19

Sorry I don't think I've worded right in my original post...

The mother and father and child are all U.K. nationals... mothers partner is not and it is him who has a home in his country which mother, mothers partner and child frequently visit together.

I take your point though it's just hard to think what's happening when you're in the thick of it so thank you.

Mediation is not working because mother is not prepared to negotiate on anything. She wants to veto his weekends / contact time if she has plans and recently has regularly been making arrangements over his time and refusing make up time for it. Partner has drawn up a parenting plan which she will not even look at and she does not want to stick to the contact arrangement that has been in place for years any longer because "it's controlling to her and plans her and DDs life out in advance" which she doesn't think is fair on her (her being EXW) 🤷🏽‍♀️

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Collaborate · 15/11/2018 17:32

What is the language in this country she wants to go to?

PictureFrame24 · 15/11/2018 17:52

The language spoken is Spanish, however there is an English speaking international school dealing with primary and secondary education 10 minutes away from where they are based there (partner does not know the specific address of the house, only the area)

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Collaborate · 15/11/2018 18:22

That will be a private school then. Who is going to pay the fees? Why would he want to pay such school fees?

Sounds like there may not be enough evidence of an intention to relocate. Without it he can only object to a temporary removal from the UK if it means she's trying to eat in to his holiday time.

He really needs to concentrate on getting it before the court and reestablishing contact.

Shriek · 15/11/2018 18:22

How long has she known this guy with the 'spanish' home?

I had these difficulties particularlt around parties that DC wanted to go to,and then biof had to miss out, likewise, I wouldn't have them either, this is sense of developing socially for DC, less time with either parent and then it becomes difficult to make up time because at one point there were literally parties or sleepovers or something always going on and homework suffered. Is you do doing school work with them and taking on the regular life? I ended up with DCs getting very stressed at the pressure it put on them, having to go here and there.
We didnt 'Make up' time missed if DC wanted to attend something social for themselves as that is more important than parents. I had to work round those things too. Its v hard on dc

PictureFrame24 · 15/11/2018 18:49

DH does homework on the one weeknight she used to come here - he did ask for more weekday time, but it was refused and actually he had to fight to get the one night agreed to in the first place.

It is difficult as she gets older with social events etc, but she has friends / family at our house too that she also enjoys seeing.

Recently we organised a birthday sleepover with her friends / cousins on this side to coincide with DP weekend that EXW knew about in advance, and at the last minute she made arrangements to take her to a ticketed event over his time and so DD missed out.

As it happens we had also booked to take her to a theme park trip for a couple nights as part of her present (she asked if we could go and again it was booked over his arranged contact time) which she was unable to go to because by that point contact was being denied. So whilst I agree it's not always easy for the RP, she misses out on things we've planned and they can't be rearranged.

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PictureFrame24 · 15/11/2018 18:50

And sorry forgot to say, mother has been with new partner for approx 2 years to my knowledge

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PictureFrame24 · 15/11/2018 18:55

And I should also add sorry that when DD has social arrangements which are over his time eg. Birthday parties etc, DP has said in the past that he has no problem with taking her to them when it falls on his time - he sees that as part of parenting. He's gone as far as saying that if a party falls on one of his days then if EXW forwards him on the details (name, age etc of the child) then he'll provide the present and card, get her ready, take her there, stay with her if necessary etc...but he's never been allowed. If a day party falls on a Saturday on his contact time she just doesn't get to see him that day and she loses a full contact day / night with him.

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Shriek · 15/11/2018 19:22

Ah, I see. There should be no reason that he couldn't take her, stay if needed/collect.
I guess though these would be dm's friends at the party, bit awkward/weird? But no reason the rest of the day can't happen.
What is she alleging as reason for no contact now?

PictureFrame24 · 15/11/2018 19:50

To be honest @Shriek that was my thoughts as to why she would maybe not want him taking her is if she knows the parents (I don't know enough about her to know how friendly she is with her school friends mums) and I suppose that's fair enough if so. But I just don't think he should lose his whole day / night even if that is the case...

She has about 4/5 different reasons including (without being too outing hopefully) that:

  • he doesn't respond to her texts quickly enough (he's not allowed his phone at work and works long shifts and has said in the past that email is easier if she wants a quick reply because he has access to that at work but she refuses to email)
  • she's unhappy about the fact she has a set of her own clothes at our house (she believes that we're trying to change her identity / "cleanse her of her real home" - actually it's just to save her carting bags about every visit but apparently having a set of clothes at our house is emotionally damaging her)

There's another couple, but that's the jist.

On hindsight due to the advice on this thread I think probably the chances of her taking away permanently are low (I hope!) but like I say when you're trying to find some justification for a scenario like this your mind goes to all places and thinks the worst, especially when she's known to be quite impulsive / flakey. I guess he'll just have to try work through it at mediation and hope that contact gets reestablished in time for the trip...

Appreciate all the advice Thanks

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Doyoumind · 15/11/2018 20:01

This needs to proceed to court without any further mediation as she clearly isn't reasonable. Her attitude won't go down well at court and she'll be ordered to recommence contact. Sort this now as it will only become more difficult as his DD gets older.

It doesn't sound like the solicitor is very good. You need one you are confident in. You aren't tied to this one.

Shriek · 15/11/2018 20:06

Feel for you OP trying to help this difficult situation.

I used to have problems where DCs were not 'allowed' to bring anything from his home to ours, nothing. So any gifts that were given had to stay at his. I explained that this means he hasn't actually given them to you, that they are not actually yours but still his!
It's horrible and messy, and yes, hope the mediation works out.
You have never spoken to her in all this time? That's quite weird. How have you managed to avoid each other all this time?
Does she not come to pick up?

PictureFrame24 · 15/11/2018 20:37

Thank you @Shriek Anything his daughter gets here is "her stuff" not "ours" if you know what I mean, hence why the clothes issue seems like a bit of a strange thing to me to get wound up about. She'll sometimes go home in stuff from "here" and it always gets sent immediately back next time and followed up with a text message about how her wearing clothes that aren't her normal clothes is confusing for her... but they are hers Hmm We bought them for her...

His solicitor just doesn't seem to want to proceed with anything and directs him back to mediation, which she gets legal aid for but he doesn't. But when they get there she doesn't want to engage in the process it would seem.

I've been with partner for 4 years now and I've never met her beyond a wave in passing at the car on 2/3 occasions. At first I expected her to maybe ask to meet me before I met their DD but she never asked (I would have gladly done it if so) - she used to make comments to DP about how I was his mid life crisis / rebound after his divorce so I suppose she never expected me to be on the scene for long. Then after a while it just never seemed necessary because I already had an ongoing relationship with DD... then the hostility ramped up significantly after we had been together for a year so at that point and from then I've just let him deal with it and I keep a distance. He does the pick ups / drop off to her flat and she's 3 floors up and DH escorts DD at least to the secure entry / upstairs so even if I'm in the car we never cross paths.

OP posts:
Shriek · 15/11/2018 20:43

I think you should talk to her, break this awful situation.
You're in her dd's life, and it seems weird. Ask if she can pick up DD from you and invite her in...or you drop off DD to the door and speak to her?
You might glean something
I don't get the thing with the clothes, that's not confusing, she is making that confusing if DD is then told to take them back.
Shame for DD in the middle of this

PictureFrame24 · 15/11/2018 21:32

Sorry I realise this has become a massive drip feed and has swerved away from legal!

She hasn't ever shown any interest in meeting me, so I'm not sure how it would go down to be honest, and the last thing I want is to make it worse - but it's definitely something to consider...

So far I've just taken the view that's she's obviously got no desire for it, and DD has two full parents to deal with things so I didn't feel the need to take things further. If I'm being honest she gives me total second hand anxiety - she kicks off and our whole lives end up put on hold for however long she decides to keep it up for. But it would depend whether she took it as a good thing ie. third party being a buffer, or if she seen me as trying to over involve myself. Could go either way.

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Shriek · 15/11/2018 21:36

Well, it need only be brief/once to see what she might or might not want to say.

Yeah, sorry, bit derailing.

PictureFrame24 · 15/11/2018 23:06

Appreciate the advice / suggestions! Smile

OP posts:
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