Removing car keys from an alcoholic

[SamPotatoes]

MiL is dying (probably less than a week to go) and FiL is not coping and trying to drink himself into oblivion. On Monday we found him lying on the hall floor in a drunken stupor with a head injury and blood everywhere. He refused to get checked out or allow a medic in the house. Scared that he might attempt to drive we took his car keys. He's just phoned me demanding I return them and accusing me of theft.
There's absolutely no way on this planet that will happen- he drinks constantly including through the night so will not be sober. He can barely stand and you can smell the booze coming of him. What are the possible legal issues for us holding onto his car keys? He has told me he intends to drive and I believe he will try. I will give them back if he is sober (very unlikely) but it would help to be prepared for anything that he might try. There are substantial official records including with social services detailing his extreme drinking and he had to be removed as MiL's next of kin as hospital did not believe he was capable. Plenty of witnesses to his behaviour and if he called the police they would be able to tell instantly he is drunk.

Hi there, don't know if this will be any help. I'd maybe contact 111 or go to your local station and explain what is going on. That way you've covered your back if you follow their advice xxx

My poor dad was an alcoholic. I took his keys many times and don't regret it for a second. Unfortunately he died last year but one of the biggest emotions I felt, aside from devastated, was relief that he hadn't killed some innocent child on the roads with that bloody car. I don't know what the legal ramifications would be but it's very unlikely he would ring the police. What's he going to say? 'My Dil took my keys so I can't drink drive?'.

It's so hard though

I would keep it simple and say you won't give them back under any circumstances. It sounds from the level at which he's drinking as if he's never sober, even when he might appear to be so.

Just bounce his calls (why isn't your DP dealing with his father?) and let him go to the police if he wants to.

What a horribly stressful time for you all, so sorry to hear about your MIL.

Thank you all. I'd never forgive myself if he hurt anyone so there is absolutely no way he's getting them back. I'd hope that the police wouldn't take any notice of him but Googled and found some horror stories where they had insisted keys are returned and people rely on reporting when the person attempts to drive.

DH has taken over his mother's care and I'm trying to deal with his dad so DH and his mam can have the last few days together in peace without arguments over car keys. Other family members could fall for emotional blackmail and hand over the keys but DH knows I won't cave- once less thing for him to worry about!

I'd go to the nearest police station myself, with his car keys, and hand them over to the police saying that you are 100% positive he intends to drink drive and do not want to be responsible for it.

You've done the right thing. He will be angry and say horrible things but you need to stay strong and keep hold of them. A very tough situation for you all.

Keys? What keys? I'm sure you haven't seen any keys.

Midnite- I have debated posting them to someone in Australia...

GP came today and said he can not foresee FiL ever being in a state to get his keys back but we won't need to find a long term solution as blood tests show he's not likely to last much longer than MiL.

for everyone who offered advice, especially those who have been in this position. We know we are doing the right thing but it really helps to have someone to confirm it.

Midnite- I have debated posting them to someone in Australia...

Happy to be guardian of the keys here down under. I have a very exuberant puppy here that likes to chew metal things.

"You cant find your keys? (..We put them back in your house last week..). It's probably best as you're drunk all the time & could kill someone/get arrested if & when you drink drive.."

Your DF's GP can write to DVLA that he's a chronic serious alcohol abuser, and DVLA may remove his licence. That won't stop him driving if he intends to, so morally you are good to keep his keys for his safety, and for the public if he is drunk 24/7.

However legally, you cannot do so. If he claimed to police you've stolen his keys, if you said yes I have his keys & why, police have little choice but to tell you to return them (otherwise theft) even though totally understanding why. Then he's on police radar but someone has to report him for getting into his car drunk/drink driving. He will be arrested and his car may be impounded.

However police can't do anything (i.e. no legal v moral dilemma!) for example if situation was....
"Officer, He's drunk all the time and lost his own keys. He always does this. He loses them in his house and when out. We've even had to drive him home as too drunk at our houses.

To be frank officer, no one is rushing to massively help him find them as he's drunk from morning to night & he intends to drink drive.

Officer, if we happen to find his keys, they'll get returned to him".

I guess in that example, everyone would be told keys were returned but he lost them drunk.

You see, his keys might have fallen down back of a random chair in any of the family's houses or inside a wellie in any of their coat cupboards, or be lost in his house, and you'd never know. It wouldn't be anyone elses/ family's responsibility to keep finding his keys for him....

I'm so sorry for the terrible time you are going through with both your MIL and PIL
It sounds devastating and fraught. You sound very kind and caring to both your PIL.

Thank you whereismum, I think I'll use that approach if it is needed. He hasn't asked for them back again so think he has accepted it for the moment. He would totally try and drive without a licence otherwise I'd report him to DVLA. Taking his keys is the only thing that'll do it.

I'm rather fond of the daft auld bugger and it is so sad to see him like this. There were a few tears last night when he asked if this was going to be MiL's last week and I said yes. They've been together 57 years and he's just fallen apart at losing her. She's sleeping a lot now and not aware of any of this, thank God.

How about a back up plan of also letting one of his tyres down? That way you can say something about how if only you could find his keys you'd still have to get the tyre sorted.

Good idea, WhoGivesaDamn. Or a lock on the steering wheel and lose the key to that too...

@SamPotatoes It seems you've got it all sorted now. This will be such a tough week for you all, and then the coming weeks, I wish you all the best. Keep us updated if you feel you need a vent or even a friendly cheer from the side...

(but I expect you'll be busy xxx)

Thank you whereismum, that's lovely of you.

Whilst I know it’s not your top priority, legally you are in the clear, because you’re using proportionate methods to prevent the commission of crime and bodily injury - a “defence of necessity”. You have the doctor as a witness to the situation, so you’re legally fine.

@BehemothPullsThePeasantsPlough
Bless you. If you RTFT, you'll see that doesn't hold at all, not legally,in this instance.

But OP has ways it will be fine, legally .

It's very important that people don't spuriously rely on inapplicable specific legal defences , like proportionate response, unless it was in a direct instance that it apllied immediately - for eg "when they:got into sldruvers seat tos start car drunk in order to drink drive I removed keys and held keys til police arrived (whom I called) and then I passed car keys onto police officer"- that's proportionate response.

Predicting that someone may use keys to commit a crime at some point in the future, and taking car keys (theft) doesn't have same legal justification.

However if he lost the keys and cant find them, & family aren't rushing to help, that's different.

I would deny you have them too. Even if legally it may be dodgy morally it’s the right thing!

My grandpa was trying to drive when in the end stages of cancer (and constantly drunk too but if you can’t drink then!). His tyres somehow deflated and he couldn’t get the car out of the garage, obviously none of us had time to help sort it either

Keeping keys indefinitely wouldn’t normally be proportionate no, but in this very particular case, he’s going to be drunk whenever he asks for the keys, because he’s literally always drunk, and he’s always going to be asking for them with the intention of using them, so withholding them will always be the right thing to do, and any cop called isn’t going to tell you to hand them over are they? Also, in practice, a definitive statement that “I’m doing this in order to protect life and limb and prevent a crime” even though it might be a teeny bit messy in court, will give you backup.

@BehemothPullsThePeasantsPlough

It won't give you a legal defense. Please RTFT. Rather than trying to eeek out something that isn't a robust nor ok legal advice.

Better advice has been given earlier and more apt in situation.

I think the GP might help you here. I have always understood that if a medical professional advises someone not to drive, believing them to be medically unfit, then they must, legally, follow that advice. Perhaps GP would be willing to confirm this and then you can say that you have no choice. Sorry you are going through this.