Sleeping Arrangements

[Checkers902]

Hello! have a bit of a random question on behalf of a friend of mine, I'll try be brief but not miss anything out!

Friend is the RP of a 10 year old boy who stays EOW with NRP for 1 night. Without going in to a huge backstory this overnight has only recently started up, before it was just day visits. As part of overnights starting friend insisted proper sleeping arrangements were put in place at NRP residence.

NRP stays in a 2 bedroom house with new partner and has 2 other children (younger half siblings to 10 year old)

NRP has turned the attic in the house in to a bedroom for the 10 year old. It has fixed stairs, a double bed (plus much more additional space - is actually the biggest room in the house now apparently) is 6 ft in height and has a Velux window. It also has a radiator. Apparently this was previously used as a bedroom by the former owners of the house however it now turns out that they applied for planning permission and then withdrew the application (history found online) so for all intents and purposes this is an "illegal conversion" and friend is not happy with son sleeping there.

NRP has decided it is secure enough and is happy for son to sleep there. (Younger siblings are about 2/3 so no option of putting either / both of them up there instead.)

The son is supposedly happy with the room and wants to sleep there but friend is not convinced that they are not just saying that to keep NRP happy.

I'm just wondering whether friend has any legal stance on this? Can she refuse to allow him to sleep up there when he's under NRP care, and insist on a safer sleeping arrangement at that address or does this essentially come down to parental choice?

I think this would come down to parental choice. Is not something that I would be concerned about, having spent many happy visits at my grandmother’s house that had a massive attic with lots of mattresses for big grandchildren sleepovers. In that case, no way would have got building regs approval as has a fixed (but safe) stair that didn’t meet requirements. Was also Listed, so works to make conversion fit regs would not have been passed.

Our loft is a conversion. If I think back to the long long list of requirements, from landing depth, stair incline, Insulation and glazing to escape velux (no longer required apparently), I can understand why unless you were doing it yourselves now, you wouldn’t necessarily apply to regularise it.

But you’re asking about legal knowledge. Which I don’t have. But for occasional EOW sleeping as a layperson this is not something that would be worthy if kicking off about.

What's the problem? It sounds fine to me. Presumably they have smoke alarms? I think your friend is being a bit dog in the manager.

@Janleverton Thank you for your reply...

I know what you mean! When I think back to the number of attics I slept in myself as a child at relatives / friends etc probably very few of them were regulated (and nobody cared!)

I can see friends concern from a fire safety point of view though (although I think as a 10 year old I'd have been in my element having a hideaway room!)

There is no court order in place and friend is talking about withdrawing overnights as a result of this, but I strongly suspect NRP would pursue this through court if it came to that. I don't want friend to put themselves in a position of potentially looking unreasonable so I was just wondering I suppose if there was any legal backup for them, but it is a bit of an unusual scenario I suppose.

@NorthernLurker Friend is a bit of a worrier, and I think the main concern is fire safety etc. However I think they are also uncomfortable with child being away upstairs out of earshot too and worried about falling downstairs through the night for toilet etc. Family members are builders who have advised room should be all legalised etc or shouldn't be used.

They have not seen the room first hand obviously but the EX has emailed to state all the details above (heating etc) and they apparently also have a smoke alarm and a fire extinguisher up there.

Oh golly. It sounds to me that your friend might be making a mistake to withdraw contact on this basis. My D.C. would have been blown away by double bed, privacy and den possibilities of an attic at that age. If there’s a smoke alarm and fire extinguisher then I think it sounds fine. It isn’t being used as a permanent bedroom if only EOW and tbh the builder family members sound like they’re stirring. But again - no idea about the legal side of things. My understanding is that generally courts try and ensure overnight access for dcs with non resident parent.

A loft conversion does not necessarily need planning permission. It depends on the volume of additional roof space and a number of other factors. The fact the application for planning permission was withdrawn does not necessarily mean it was an illegal conversion. However, building regulations approval should have been obtained.

In the absence of any court orders your friend can do whatever they want. However, if the NRP takes this to court, your friend's actions in stopping contact over this are likely to be viewed as unreasonable. The description you have given does not suggest that the room is a serious safety hazard.

Thank you for your comments!

As far as I know building regulations approval has not been sought which is what family member builders are telling friend there should be. Friend has emailed NRP to say that they do not want child sleeping there unless it is a properly legally converted bedroom.

I agree that the 10 year old probably loves it (as kids do with spaces like that!) but friend is saying he's only saying that to keep NRP happy.

I actually disagree with friend on this matter and am concerned as I genuinely feel this will go down the court route if they refuse overnights if child sleeps there. However friend is convinced that in that instance court would agree that they are being reasonable 😕

They have spoken to their solicitor but they didn't really give an answer either way from the sounds of it. There is a history of withholding contact on one occasion previously on RP part (earlier this year for 6 weeks)

Your friend needs to be careful. Her child’s relationship with their other parent is important and shouldn’t be disrupted except for genuine threat. A lack of building regs isn’t going to cut it I suspect.

Thank you for the responses...very much appreciated!

Would it be possible for friend to still facilitate contact but to insist on no overnights whilst NRP allows child to sleep in the attic?

I would have thought it would essentially come down to parental choice but they're insisting that NRP is doing something illegal allowing child up there as they deem it unsuitable sleeping arrangements.

I think your friend is wrong to think the courts would come down on her side in this matter in fact I think she could end up with a worse deal than she has now! The room as a fixed staircase as an escape route no roof Access if needed that's all my legally approved loft conversion had.

I'm afraid your friend is being crazy. Why was she even looking it up online in the first place?..

It's not an 'illegal conversion', they just don't have regs so they couldn't sell it as an extra bedroom. Plenty of houses have conversions without regs, especially old ones.

If she withdraws contact on this basis, and he gets legal advice, he may well be advised to go for more than he has now, eg the standard EOW plus one night in the week, and her conduct in withdrawing contact at this point will only work in his favour.

Thank you everybody for the advice, this is what I had thought myself to be honest. I'll have to have a word with her, I just wondered if there was anything that she could legitimately say to justify it legally, but it does not look like it.

It was the family members who are builders who looked at the planning permissions online (public access) to show her that it was not a properly legally converted bedroom. Therefore her argument is that it is not safe / suitable for a child as it does not have planning permission / building regs and she will not allow overnight access unless it is a legally converted bedroom meeting all safety requirements etc.

The argument itself may be valid the judge may rule the child cant sleep in that room but they wont stop overnights they will just ask for alternative arrangements to me mad which from past experience may well be a lot less comfortable for her DC than now. I think she will find if she speaks to anyone professionally her idea of proper sleeping arrangements and the courts are very different. and if NRP pushes for it the may well find in favor of more than one night per week.