over reaction at beavers

[boxingclever]

Hi guys I'd really appreciate your help with this one, briefly:

My son was at beavers recently, whilst sitting down a kid started kicking him, he lashed out and poked the kid in the genitals. (I found out he did this as a couple of weeks earlier another kid had hit him in the same area so he knew it hurt to be hit there). The first kid went away and got his sister, they both came back and started kicking him. Again, he lashed out and poked her in the genitals, being naive enough not to know it wouldn’t have the same effect.

Now this is where it gets silly, Beavers recorded what happened and forwarded the details to their HQ. A rather arrogant woman from the HQ contacted me last night and apparently I need help with my son’s behaviour, so they are passing the details of this ‘incident’ to Child Services who will be in touch. I strongly objected to this whilst on the phone. Are they allowed to forward personal details of my child to a third party without my permission under GDPR? I’m assuming there is some sort of way of doing this without my consent but surely only if they consider my son to be at risk or something similar?

What exactly is your worry about your son's details being Child Services from a privacy perspective? You must realise that is a completely ridiculous objection.

The objection is the fact Beavers can just get Child Services involved because they feel like it without my permission. As they seem to think I'm a bad parent who needs help. This was an isolated incident, he's never had any problems like this before at Beavers or any of the other clubs he attends.

Whether or not this is an over reaction or badly handled (and none of us, including yourself) witnessed what took place) are you seriously suggesting that people need a parent's consent to contact children's services to report concerns about a child?

I hope it is all as innocent as you say comes to nothing, but we can't live in a world where parents can object to someone reporting concerns about a child's wellbeing.

Are you not a bit worried about your son's behaviour?

Is your objection:
a) that Beavers can refer you without your permission (surely you can see that has to be possible - otherwise they couldn't refer any cases of serious abuse or where there are serious concerns, as parents/carers would block it)
b) that you've been referred when you don't think there's good reason?

I assume b) and would probably feel annoyed too, if it was an isolated incident - but in a calm moment, I'd rather they followed up anything they have concerns about, rather than missing something important. Simply co-operate, explain the situation, and all will be well, I'm sure.

YANBU. It’s perfectly normal for a child who is being repeatedly kicked to lash out and try to cause maximum pain to get the kicking to stop. Where were the leaders while this kicking was taking place? Are the other two children being disciplined for bullying and violence?

Tbh I’d withdraw my child from Beavers because they are clearly not taking care of him and their reaction is disproportionate. And if CS get in touch ask them what’s wrong with a bullied child retaliating?

If your son is at beavers then he's 6 at least. Old enough to know that you don't hit, poke or anything else another child's genital area. Also old enough to know to get a leader or young leader if he's being kicked.

The leader will have recieved safeguarding training, and part of that safeguarding is about when to refer. Given the group structure of scouting, the Beaver leader will have gone to their GSL and discussed it first. Reporting on, given that he's poked two children in their genital area was almost certain. If, as you say, he was just acting out, then it's not going to go anywhere. But as leaders, the report has to happen because it could be there's other stuff going on that ds can provide additional sort with.

Work with them, be open and honest, and It'll blow over.

If you feel trust has broken down, then contact county about moving to a different unit.

Given he was retaliating and going for a point he’d thought would hurt, it does seem an over reaction. I’d expect them to talk to you so that you could have the PANTS chat but not contact CS.

Typically parents of a child who has done something unacceptable will say “it’s an overreaction” when sanctions are dished out. So just watch out for the line between it really being an overreaction and you considering it an overreaction.

I’d withdraw him from beavers due to lack of supervision anyway. Not only that, but he’s been marked out as a wrong ‘un now at beavers and I don’t think it’s worth going.what do they do at beavers that is so unmissable anyway? Just take him walking in the woods with you.

I’d also explain to him NSPCC pants rule, ie nobody must touch your pants area, but equally you must not go around touching other people’s pants area. If you want to drive the point home, tell him he can’t go to beavers because he touched someone in the pants area and that is not acceptable.

"And if CS get in touch ask them what’s wrong with a bullied child retaliating?"
The OP didn't say he was being bullied, did she?

From a legal perspective, yes, of course they can forward your details to Social Services without your permission. It is not a breach of GDPR.

From a safeguarding perspective Beavers are spot on.

One of the issues with detecting child abuse is that the signs are rarely clear cut. Most of the possible indicators of abuse also happen with children who are not being abused. For example, a child soiling themselves is a possible indicator of abuse, but most children who soil themselves are not being abused. A single indicator on its own is, therefore, meaningless. However, a pattern of indicators means there is something to investigate. It still doesn't mean the child is being abused but it means the possibility must be seriously considered.

In this case we have a boy aged at least 6 poking other children in the genitals. Like it or not, regardless of the circumstances, it is a possible indicator of abuse.

If agencies such as Beavers don't report this kind of thing, Social Services have no chance of detecting possible abuse. If you read the report of the Victoria Climbie case, you will find that many agencies failed to report signs that, on their own, were capable of innocent explanation. Had they reported these signs it is possible Social Services would have realised she was being abused and taken steps to protect her.

Neither Beavers nor Social Services think you are a bad parent who needs help. I would be surprised if Child Services actually contact you. As this was an isolated incident I expect it will be filed and forgotten. Eventually the record will be destroyed.

As someone who is involved has been involved in child protection in a voluntary capacity for many years, my view is that Beavers have not in any way over-reacted. They have treated this incident correctly. It is, sadly, the case that far too much abuse still goes undetected because youth organisations, schools, doctors, etc. fail to report incidents like this.

For clarity, I am not in any way alleging that your child is being or has been abused. As with most other indicators of possible abuse, most children who behave in this way are not being abused.

Well it does seem like an over-reaction but then we are only getting a one-sided version of events from a biased party who wasn't actually there. We don't know for sure that her child retaliated - he could very well have started the fight. We can reasonably assume that he didn't just "tap" the brother and sister on the genitals (punch/hit/kick are more likely given the context). We can also assume the OP did herself no favours when dealing with the "arrogant" safeguarding officer from HQ.

Flip the coin.you are the parent of two kids who have come back from Beavers to tell you that another kid assaulted them both by striking them on the genitals. You get in touch with the organisation and are told that their safeguarding officer has spoken to the other child's parent but they were uncooperative, insisted your children started the fight and dismisses the hits on your kids' genitals as just "taps". The SO tells you that given the nature of the incident, and total lack of cooperstion from the parent, she is seriously considering reporting it to child services. Would you tell her she was ridiculously overreacting?

Safeguarding policy will mean they have a duty to report, including passing on your dc identity to relevant authority. GDPR does not override legal obligations.

Behaviour may not be sexually aggressive but a symptom of how the child is being treated elsewhere. Perhaps you should consider his behaviour and how he may have learnt to lash out.

Of course they can get SS involved without your permission. It's called Safeguarding.

I know I’m a few years out of date with safeguarding policy but it used to be that unless there was a quite clear evidence that a child is being abused the person having the information had a responsibility to discuss the situation with the parents first.
In this situation I think the referrer has jumped the gun and may. Abuse significant distress to OP needlessly.
IMO it would have been much more sensible to explain to OP what the situation was. OP would then have had the opportunity to explain the background to her child retaliating without this being blown out of proportion.

May cause significant distress

I know I’m a few years out of date with safeguarding policy but it used to be that unless there was a quite clear evidence that a child is being abused the person having the information had a responsibility to discuss the situation with the parents first

As someone who is currently involved in safeguarding, things have definitely moved on. Most voluntary organisations now take the view that they should not investigate or do anything that may alert an abuser to their concerns.

The OP didn't say he was being bullied, did she?
She said he was being kicked and then the child went to fetch another child and they both kicked him. Sounds like bullying to me.

If you want to drive the point home, tell him he can’t go to beavers because he touched someone in the pants area and that is not acceptable
I don’t see anything wrong with him kicking an attacker in the balls. They shouldn’t have attacked him. I would never chastise my child for anything done in self defence.

I don’t see anything wrong with him kicking an attacker in the balls

He didn't kick. According to the OP he poked them. That suggests he used his hand, hence the safeguarding concerns.

How effective do you think child protection services would be if parents had to give their permission for people to report their concerns?

“She said he was being kicked and then the child went to fetch another child and they both kicked him. Sounds like bullying to me.“

Hmm. He poked another child in the genitals and that child went to get his big sister.
.

I’m sure you’ve realised by now that it’s not a GDPR issue.

I’m sure nothing will come of it as there won’t be anything else about your son on their system.

At 6 though he should know this isn’t on. Retaliating or not he can’t poke other children in their genitals.

He didn't kick. According to the OP he poked them. That suggests he used his hand
If I was on the ground being kicked I wouldn’t care whether I used my hand or foot to defend myself.

Hmm. He poked another child in the genitals
In self defence because that child was kicking him. Not unprovoked.

The whole situation has been caused by the other two children attacking OP’s son. And he’s being blamed for defending himself by lashing out to get his attackers to stop. Where his blows landed on the attackers’ bodies is irrelevant. He shouldn’t have had to hit them at all.

Retaliating or not he can’t poke other children in their genitals
I disagree. If someone attacks me I’ll defend myself in any way possible, with feet or fists, and I’m highly likely to punch my attacker in the goolies to cause maximum pain and incapacitate them so I can escape. If you don’t want to be punched in the goolies then don’t attack me.

You do realise we are talking about 6 year olds?