What would court order?

[sunsh1necentral]

My ex has contact with kids (6 and 4) on Wednesday overnight and Friday to Monday morning overnight every other weekend.

He gives me his childcare vouchers to cover before and after school childcare requirements on his contact days - so Wednesday after school, Thursday breakfast club, Monday before school (eow). I currently drop/pick up from school on Fridays.

He dictates that I keep his full entitlement to childcare vouchers (£243) and that the difference between the vouchers and childcare costs is deducted from my child maintenance.

I wanted to change the arrangements so that he arranged and paid for his childcare requirements directly with the childcarer - i.e., instead of me passing his vouchers to them, he does. And pay child maintenance directly to me. As I do not require additional childcare vouchers now both children are at school.

He is now saying that his contact starts at 6pm and ends at 7.30am due to his work commitments. He has stated that if I go through CMS he will no longer pay for the childcare on his contact days because contact time starts at 6pm and ends at 7.30pm and he is not obliged to pay any further costs other than child maintenance.

Ive been to a solicitor who has written a letter to him to set out our agreement (contact times from school pick up/drop off) with the aim of applying for a consent order. He's going to refuse stating that due to work commitments he can only pick up at 6pm and drop off at 7.30am and I have a feeling it will end up in court.

Will a court deem this acceptable? We only had this arrangement in place as he had originally said that he would be able to collect early/drop off later but that the childcare arrangements were in place as a fall back if he was unable to leave work.

In my eyes we are both capable of picking the children up from school. We both have work commitments. If we're unable to pick up, then it's our responsibility to arrange alternative childcare cover on our respective days with the children. His overnight stays reduces my child maintenance by 100/month which would go some way towards covering his childcare costs if he arranged visitation when he able to fully care for the children with no childcare costs.

They're actually a little more than that as they go to a different after school club on Wednesday (my exs day) that ends at 6.30pm instead of 6pm. He wanted this in case he gets stuck in traffic.

It's 17.44/child on Wednesdays as opposed to 16.50.

Email from ex....

"I give £243 towards child care. My vouchers, which come directly out my earnings. So yes I pay child care. And it was your choice to manage the vouchers.

I cannot agree to picking up and dropping off at school my employment doesn’t allow that. I have asked my boss to draft a letter stating that for the courts.

I have also discussed maintenance and the solicitor is going to draft a letter for the CSA.
Which I think is the best option going forward. They will take into account what I pay for Other ds, what I pay towards child care, clothes I now have to buy the children, time spent with me and the fact your dp is at your house more than three days a week.

I didn’t want a fight but I have looked long and hard into my rights. And I will fight to protect those rights. "

My ex provides clothes for when the children are at his house. Would his solicitor be able to draft a letter so cms is reduced by the costs of any such provision whilst the children are with my ex? They are collected on Friday in school uniform and dropped off to childcare provider in school uniform. And childcare costs?

Is ‘other DS’ a child from a previous relationship? Surely that’s already taken into account by CMS?
Is he seriously expecting a reduction to his maintenance payments because he buys the kids some clothes?

He never wanted to go through cms, so we calculate what's due (taking into account his other child from a previous relationship he also has a family based arrangement for) and overnight stays on an annual basis based on previous years earnings.

I was going to go through cms following agreement of consent order so that it's one less argument to have in any case and won't be any worse.

It sounds like he's instructing his solicitor to write to cms and ask for a reduction because he provides clothes at his house for when the children stay and pays for before on after school club on his contact days.

Surely, cms won't care?

CMS would have already allowed for feeding and clothing children in their calculations which is why it's reduced depending on the number of nights a child spends at the nrp home. He can throw as many solicitor letters as he wants to them and they'll just say they are looking into it and turn around to him and say no.

We currently have a family based arrangement - my worry is that he goes down the cms and then refuses to pay for childcare on his contact days.

If he buys the voucher he saves 1k per year in tax

The fact of the matter is you can go through CM if you want and they will have to deduct the correct amount

It is his choice if he cancels or continues the voucher

Do you know how much he earns or would roughly have to pay you via Cm

Yeah, I know what he earns and what I'm entitled to.

There are two issues really. He is paying my maintenance through a combination of cash and childcare vouchers. I don't want to continue with this arrangement as the children are not in full time childcare and I do not require childcare vouchers.

He currently pays for childcare on his contact days.

He is now saying that his contact timings start at 6pm and end at 7.30am so effectively I am now responsible for childcare.

My circumstances are changing and I will be in a position to drop the kids off at school and pick them up on my contact days. If he is adamant that his time starts and ends at 6/7.30 then I will be in a position whereby collection/drop off will be at my house as I refuse to pay for unnecessary childcare.

So Wednesday, I would pick them up from school/after school club no later than 4.30pm and give them their tea. My ex would then pick them up at 6pm - the children go to bed at 7.15pm. He will then drop them off at mine at 7.30am on Thursday and I will provide breakfast and take them to school at 8.45am.

Same with every other Friday pick up and Monday morning drop off.

They will be passed from pillar to post.

My ex currently picks them up at any time up to 6pm and drops off at any time up to 8.45am so he currently has flexibility.

Ive also spoken to hr about the letter he has requested from his boss (we work at the same place) and they have stated that the request should be forwarded to them and all that would be confirmed in the letter is that the company operates a flexible working policy which is available to all colleagues.

I'm not looking for him to pick them up from school. I'm looking for him to make the necessary childcare arrangements on his contact days should he require. Or drop them off on Sunday night to avoid the passing to pillar scenario on a Monday morning. I'm not entirely sure what the answer is for Wednesday - he picks them up at 6pm under his proposed arrangement and puts them to bed at 7.15pm and they're returned to me at 7.30am so I'd argue that it's any form of quality time.

What would be a reasonable suggestion?
If this ends up in court what is the likely outcome?
Has anyone been in a similar position?

Name change fail!

My ex has advised that he won't be paying maintenance in line with our family based arrangement - due today. Apparently his solicitor has advised him not to pay.

I have contacted cms today who said that they will write to confirm Payments due and collect a schedule. Does anyone know if I'd receive a payment this month or will they start it from 1st of July?

Was your family based arrangement done initially through cms? If not then you're looking at a 2-3 month wait for them to sort it out. My ex still hasn't paid the nearly £1000 owed in back payments while I was waiting for it to be sorted out!!

No, it wasn't.

They did say they'd write to us within a week with a schedule of payments

Ok just keep an eye out for updates with your login on cms website and follow up if need be

My experience is that when they are awkward like this, take as much out of their hands as possible. CMS will take the maintenance out of his control. Why don't you go back to him and say it would be better for him not to have the children on Wednesday because it's too disruptive for them? It won't do the children any good at all to go with the regime he has suggested for the Wednesdays. Sounds as though he is trying to control you tbh

I would rather have it ordered by a court if I'm honest. There's a history of domestic violence and if I say that I don't think its in the best interests of the children he will kick off and become abusive.

I think it's best that I air my reasons for believing it's not in the children's best interests and as he won't agree I'm happy to have a court dictate what they believe is in the kids best interests

If some of the amount owed is paid in vouchers he effectively gets a reduction in maintenance because the vouchers are purchased pre taxation that’s why he wants to continue with that arrangement
You sound stronger than the woman you were when you got together and I suspect he doesn’t like that victory you have over him.
Formalising this as much as possible is probably the best thing you can do to stay strong

It seems the letter has sent him into a frenzy and he's got himself that angry he's stopped maintenance and also won't allow me his childcare vouchers to pay for his childcare requirements. He says he doesn't have any as his time starts at 6pm and ends at 7.30am. Honestly didn't think he'd stoop this low to now provide for the children.

He says his solicitor is writing to cms to get a reduction in maintenance based on the childcare he pays for and the clothes he has to buy for when the kids are at his. And that he shouldn't pay until this has been resolved.

Would a court really order that I pack a bag every weekend? We did operate like this in the early days of the split but he found an excuse to come around because he needed different clothes or shoes. If I have to supply clothes for his house I'd rather agree that I provide a certain amount of clothes (2 pairs of jeans, 2 tshirts, a jumper each, trainers, coat) and I replace that on an annual basis. Anything else he requires being on him to supply.

Will this look bad in court? I mean, I'm keeping everything the same whilst we come to an agreement and he's just changed the agreement. I was hoping to resolve this with solicitor assistance but I really don't think that he's going to play ball.

From experience just when I thought my ex couldn't stoop any lower he'd always and still does surprise me. He's solicitor can write what they want. He's just wasting his money in the end. If he's saying he uses child care vouchers as part of the agreement but you not allowed to use his anymore... really??

But he has just stopped paying for childcare and essentials by the sounds of your post, he can't have it both ways.
Of course you didn't think he'd stoop this low if you did you never would have had two children with him. People are full of surprises when their control is under threat.

I'm just going to keep everything the same regarding contact. If I have to pay for all childcare whilst this is being resolved then so be it.

I'll be in a position whereby it gets to court and I can demonstrate that I'd hoped to agree contact amicably and despite him makes sudden changes to our current agreement Ive maintained my side of our arrangement re contact.

And hope the court sees him for what he is.

Currently on holiday, return tonight. Ex was meant to have the children from 8am tomorrow (not seen them since Saturday morning after dropping off at 8.45am).

He's emailed me on Wednesday with our schedule telling me he's changed the collection time to 12pm as he "didn't realise it was 8am collection"

This is the second time a month that he made last minute changes that have imposed on my plans.

This is partly what I'm trying to avoid by going down the consent order route. Is it even possible that a consent order will solve this?

No update re child maintenance. He has said I can use his childcare vouchers to cover his childcare costs. So further admission that he's liable for them

Things have progressed somewhat.

The children spent a week at their dads and returned with stories/behaviour that concerned me:-

• my ds started crying in the car. Said that his dad had told him not to tell me something. That he wanted to tell me but his dad would shout. Went on for ages. Eventually told me that he'd let him sit in the front of the car without his car seat.

• my dd came out with "fucking hell" when she made a mistake with a dot to dot. Spoke to her and said that we don't say that and it's very naughty. Her response "my daddy does". Told a story about how someone had thrown a strawberry at his car and he shouted "fucking hell", got out of the car and shouted "what did you do that for you fucking idiot".

• my dd said "it's good you and dp don't fight because my daddy and his dp fight and I was in the back of the car crying". I asked why she was crying. Ex was shouting out at his dp calling her a liar after finding a Liverpool based ticket (one child said parking, the other said train). Ds said he was begging ex to give his dp another chance and that he was upset on the inside but not on the outside and that his daddy was angry on the inside and the outside. They told me "daddy gave dp another chance and they're in love again"

School got in touch with me last Monday as dd was touching private parts and had been sat on a child and moving in a simulating way.

I told them everything that had been relayed to me and said that I had concerns that the children were witnessing domestic violence.

On Thursday I picked the children up from childminders - they had been at exes on Wednesday night. Childminder said that dd had said to her df in front of cm "you and your dp had a fight. You said we won't be going to her house ever again". Ex said that he never said it.

Took them home and the conversation went like this
Dd "were not allowed to go to DP's house ever again"
Me "why not"
Dd "they had a fight. I was in bed and I couldn't sleep because daddy was shouting"
Ds "she's telling the truth. I couldn't sleep. Don't ring him though"
Me "I'm not ringing him. Why don't you want me to ring him?"
Ds "because he'll shout at you too"
Dd "when am I at daddy's next?"
Me "tomorrow"
Dd "can I stay with you?"
Me "why?"
Dd "because daddy and Eileen might shout again at night and I won't sleep and be grumpy like I was today"
Ds "we have to go to daddy's otherwise he'll be angry. There's a lot of things that stress my dad out"

This post was edited by MNHQ

The cm mentioned the conversation to the school and they rang me to attend to complete paperwork for an early help assessment to be conducted on both the children - I am attending today.

They rang ex on Friday - he is attending on Thursday.

He had the children on Friday - I emailed him and told him I had serious concerns and that I wanted the children dropped off at 6pm on Sunday so they were well rested and ready for school. The kids had told cm, school and myself that they were in bed and were awoken because of shouting and swearing on the Wednesday night.

He got very angry initially on the Friday and said that I was looking to build a case to have he children removed from him and was threatened that he'd be doing the same.

By Saturday morning, he'd calmed down and was promising not to deviate from the schedule without prior agreement and that he would no longer dictate changes. He promised that the children wouldn't witness anymore arguments. He promised to chase his solicitor up to provide a response to mine. He promised to sort the form received from cms.

Ds rang me on Sunday at 5.30pm to tell me that they were going to be late. I messaged ex and told him not to relay messages to me through the children. Ex dropped children off at 6.20pm, told me that ds hadn't done all of his homework. Got them showered and ready for bed and at 7pm ds asks what's for tea. Messaged ex and he confirmed that he hadn't given them tea as he assumed I would.