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Original poster

Changing mind about agreed holiday with a child arrangements order in place

67 replies

worriedandstressedAAA · 21/05/2018 23:30

My ex and I have a childcare arrangements order in place which specifies that my ex gets X amount of holidays per year (2 weeks in the summer, 1 week at Christmas and half of the half terms) so we have to agree dates. The order also says that my ex is supposed to give me certain information about any foreign travel, e.g. flight time, where DCs are staying etc) well in advance.

So, my ex asked a few months ago if he could take DCs, 10 and 8, to see his dad who lives abroad (in Europe). I agreed but now have good reasons why I don't want DCs to go including that my ex's dad slags both me and my DH off and last time they saw him it took a week for them to settle.

Question is, can I now withdraw consent to them going abroad? I don't mind my ex having them half the holiday but don't want them to leave the country. As I said, we have a child arrangements order in place and a residence/live with order in my favour.

OP posts:
MrsBertBibby · 23/05/2018 08:24

I strongly suspect the children will want whatever the OP tells them to want.

worridmum · 23/05/2018 10:58

Yes and the judges can and regularly charge obstructive parents like you the costs and may go even further and ORDER you to pay the FULL cost of the holiday AND all his court costs and may even grant an order that mean you will have ZERO control on any future holidays as the judge can make an order which means he no longer EVER needs your consent and or the judge can force it to go to court every time he wants to go all the time at YOUR expense.

While some of these powers are rarely used they can be and i have personally seen such orders being granted so be careful.

3333hh44 · 23/05/2018 11:04

But you did agree.

timeisnotaline · 23/05/2018 11:15

I read your op. Nowhere does it say he needs your consent to take them os, only that you have to agree dates, which you have. Your op says nothing about whether you can withdraw this agreement. Even if you can it is pretty obstructive behaviour and your ex can probably take you back to court for refusing to agree dates which is essentially what your agreeing then withdrawing would be and which would put you in breach of the order. You would have to demonstrate sound reasoning why this was a one off and he would obtain the conditions (ie the time in advance you must agree dates and not retract your agreement) for taking them to see his dad. Hardly sounds worth it- end result costs time and money, you look quite petty and this impression is recorded in court decisions reducing your leverage going forward, dc go to visit ex’s parents.

vilamoura2003 · 23/05/2018 11:23

The children are not your "possessions" - you don't own them any more than your ex just because the arrangements order is that they live with you 🤔 You both have joint parental responsibility. I think a Judge would look very unfavourably on this if your ex takes it back to Court. Are there welfare concerns or social services involvement?

Original poster
worriedandstressedAAA · 23/05/2018 16:11

FFS, all of the point again.

Ok, so I posted here as I thought/hoped it would replace getting legal advice but I should have known better, and quickly did so reached out to my lawyer. It's not implicit in the order that he can take them out of the country. It has to be agreed.

I am not getting into the rights and wrongs but wanted a view of the legalities.

As for stupid comments such as, they are not your possessions, I think i get that given that I have spent the last year bending over backwards to facilitate a relationship with their father. You all really really need to keep your traps shut and stick to what is being asked as you know nothing of the background here.

OP posts:
Original poster
worriedandstressedAAA · 23/05/2018 16:13

I should have said the last TEN years bending over backwards to facilitate a relationship.

OP posts:
Nicknacky · 23/05/2018 16:59

You have been given advice by respected posters who are well experienced in family law.

And you did agree to the trip! To move the goal posts for everyone is unfair and will not work in your favour.

Collaborate · 23/05/2018 17:02

It's not implicit in the order that he can take them out of the country. It has to be agreed.
Are you really a lawyer? It is implicit as it contains instructions on what he has to do if he wants to take them abroad, which he appears to have complied with.
You have already agreed the dates, knowing where he would be taking them. On that basis he paid for flights (I presume). If he were my client I'd be in court next week on this, and I'd be advising him to seek the cost of the trip from you if you prevent them going.

And by the way you sound charming.

NewIdeasToday · 23/05/2018 18:33

“You all really really need to keep your traps shut and stick to what is being asked as you know nothing of the background here.”

WOW!!!

GnotherGnu · 23/05/2018 18:33

I struggle to believe that you are a lawyer from this thread. Most law degrees require a family law element, and even if you haven't done family law, the training equips you to understand court orders and the like. The average lawyer also manages to cope with contrary opinions without ordering those responsible to keep their traps shut, or blaming them for not knowing information that hasn't been supplied to them.

I suspect that conduct such as agreeing to allow your children to be taken abroad and then withdrawing agreement could well provide your ex with an excellent foundation for a joint residence order.

fontofnoknowledge · 23/05/2018 18:54

From your post at 16:11 It's not implicit in the order that he can take them out of the country. It has to be agreed.

From your OP . I agreed but ...

Bloody Hell WorriedandstressedAAA and you say you're a lawyer ???

fontofnoknowledge · 23/05/2018 19:01

Be very very careful OP. After shenanigans not unlike the stunt you are trying to pull - my stepchildren now live with us and see their mother every other weekend. (And now they are 16 they often can't be arsed to do even that) .
These are actual children, not pawns in a game. They are expecting to visit their grandfather with their dad. Your reason for refusal is that you don't like FIL . You are not going so it doesn't affect you.

I think you probably need to be a bit more grown up about this.

MrsBertBibby · 23/05/2018 19:21

You all really really need to keep your traps shut

It's an absolute bitch when people don't do what you want them to do, isn't it?

3333hh44 · 23/05/2018 20:33

It's not implicit in the order that he can take them out of the country. It has to be agreed.
Let's say it's not implicit it is .
So, my ex asked a few months ago if he could take DCs, 10 and 8, to see his dad who lives abroad (in Europe). I agreed
From your opening op. So you did agree.

So how is this giving you a leg to stand on?

3333hh44 · 23/05/2018 20:34

Do your kids want to go?

lunar1 · 23/05/2018 20:42

If you are a lawyer then you must know that to give appropriate advice you need all the pertinent facts. Would you leave all the relevant information out in court as well?

Nesssie · 24/05/2018 10:27

I wonder why your children have behavioural issues with a mother like you... Hope your ex takes you to court.

Original poster
worriedandstressedAAA · 24/05/2018 10:51

The absolute rubbish on this thread is hilarious.

Yes, I am really a lawyer but work in a very different area. I last studied family law around 20 years ago. No competant lawyer I know would even attempt to advise on areas outside their expertise but then I guess I am dealing with a different "calibre" of lawyers on this thread.

And thank you Nessie, that's a charming wish from you. Not going to happen burt charming nevertheless. And one of my children has the behavourial issues. The other is a model of good behaviour and on the G&rT register.

There is absolutely zero chance of my ex getting joint residency nor do I think he wants it as it might involve him actually doing some work. Quite an amusing thought actually.

Consent is NOT implict in the order and the exchange of email my ex and I had over this arguably does not amount to consent on my part. The order clearly states that dates have to be agreed by X time and certain information given to me by X time, which hasn't been provided. We were in court last summer when my ex hadn't followed the right process and just gone ahead and booked flights and the court agreed with me and my ex had to rearrange.

it was clearly a bad idea to seek legal advice on this thread.

OP posts:
Original poster
worriedandstressedAAA · 24/05/2018 10:56

Kids never want to go! I've spent the last 10 years persuading them to see their father, often to their detriment. Overall I encourage and facilate all I can but in this situation I am not sure it's in their best interests after what happened the last time they saw their grandfather. His conduct was also specifically mentioned in court last summer and my ex was asked to take certain steps to prevent him doign certain things.

I really don't have time to get into the rights and wrongs of it, just wanted a quick legal view of the merits, but of course it gets hijacked.

OP posts:
SkyZoomerChase · 24/05/2018 11:03

If they've spent the last 10 years not wanting to go, does that mean they're mid teens?
If they don't want to go a court is likely to take their wishes into account at that age, just tell him DC don't want to go and ask if he wants to visit his father while the teenagers stay with you or if he wants to have them here and to rearrange seeing his dad.

3333hh44 · 24/05/2018 11:42

The order clearly states that dates have to be agreed by X time and certain information given to me by X time, which hasn't been provided. We were in court last summer when my ex hadn't followed the right process and just gone ahead and booked flights and the court agreed with me and my ex had to rearrange.
That would have been helpful to know beforehand Confused

How can we advise when we aren't given pertinent facts?

prh47bridge · 24/05/2018 11:58

If they've spent the last 10 years not wanting to go, does that mean they're mid teens

At the head of the thread the OP says they are 10 and 8. So either those ages are wrong or the OP's latest statement about spending 10 years persuading them to see their father is wrong.

prh47bridge · 24/05/2018 12:03

I am dealing with a different "calibre" of lawyers on this thread

You are dealing with some very good family lawyers on this thread. You chose not to give all the relevant information. Your first post implied that your ex had given you the information required in the order and specifically stated that you had given your consent. The thread title also states that you had consented to this holiday. The lawyers responded based on that information.

timeisnotaline · 24/05/2018 12:55

Its a bad idea to ever seek legal advice if you’re not prepared to disclose relevant information. The contract you sign will make incorrect advice given due to this reason your liability.

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