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Legal matters

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Original poster

Redundancy not sure if it’s legal?

27 replies

flissypix · 25/04/2018 07:57

In a bit of a sticky place. I have been in my job for just short of 2 years and I have been working really hard with a huge work load(2/3 peoples worth due to loss of staff) for low pay asked for a pay rise and they said no they instead are hiring another 2 people, fair enough. Yesterday my boss told me that when the new people were in post that my hours would have to change as he wants everyone doing the same hours. I currently work 9:30-4:30 and he wants me to do 8-4 one of the main reasons I do the job is because I have no access to before school care (this was agreed at the interview) I have explained I can’t change to these hours due to childcare and they have said well if that’s the case they would make me redundant!

So firstly can they make me redundant for refusing to comply whilst adding more hours to my colleagues contract and hiring 2 more people to do my job? As my job very much still exists. I am the only women with school aged children in my team- I feel like it’s indirect discrimination but HR have said not as it’s a legitimate business need and they are giving me 5 months notice.

I am beyond gutted I love my job and they had promised me a pay rise and promotion but have now decided to go in this direction.

Any advice?

OP posts:

Bluntness100 · 25/04/2018 08:02

Have you read the terms of your contract with them? What does it say about working hours?

I guess they want you to sign a document saying you agree?

I think calling it redundancy is erroneous, basically, I'm sorry, but they are firing you. I'm not sure they can call it redundancy as there is a process to be followed, it's really just dismissal.

cloudtree · 25/04/2018 08:03

Your role is a 9.30 - 4.30 role. They no longer have a requirement for that. Their requirement is now 8-4. On the face of it that could be a valid redundancy situation yes. However a more detailed examination of the facts might give you grounds for claiming that its an unfair dismissal IF you have two complete years' service at the time of your dismissal. If you don't then there is nothing you can do about an unfair dismissal complaint. You simply don't have the qualifying service to bring a claim.
Its possible you could make out a discrimination complaint based on what you've said but again that would need closer examination.

mimibunz · 25/04/2018 08:08

Read your contract. If they agreed to certain hours in the contract and then try to back out, then they are in breach.

Bluntness100 · 25/04/2018 08:09

The more I think about it the more the wording of your contract surrounding of hours and change of those hours is important.

As a pp said, as you are less that two years they can pretty much dismiss if they wish though. Will the leave date be before the two year period?

If you love it can you not organise wrap around care? What did you do during school hols?

cloudtree · 25/04/2018 08:13

Read your contract. If they agreed to certain hours in the contract and then try to back out, then they are in breach.

Which means what exactly? They are proposing to dismiss the OP. Presumably on notice. No actionable breach of contract as long as they pay her her notice period. Until she hits 2 years they are able to do this. To be quite frank they are probably looking at this now because she will shortly hit her two years. Most employers will when they have an arrangement in place that doesn't really work for them.

Original poster

flissypix · 25/04/2018 08:19

My contract says 9:30-4:30. It’s in education(not teaching) so as of August 31st I will have been there 2 years and the new proposals are for September.

My Role is term time so I have no need for holiday childcare. I have always done different hours to colleagues who all work the core hours 8-4 or 8:30-3:30 no one else’s hours are changing. Nothing has changed and infact the hiring of 2 more people would possibly indicate that it’s totally unnecessary for me to start at that time?

OP posts:

Bluntness100 · 25/04/2018 08:29

Ok, you are a bit further away from the two years than would be helpful

The contract, does it have wording surrounding changing those hours? So not just what hours but does it speak to changing them?

Ultimately they will want you to sign a mutual agreement form well before the two years, saying you won't take any action. If you don't, I'm sorry but due to lack of time there they can simply terminate your contract. They don't need to pay you anything more than your notice period.

cloudtree · 25/04/2018 08:41

You could be one day away from the two years and you still couldn't claim unfair dismissal.

Bluntness100 · 25/04/2018 08:43

I would also say as you really can't win this due to lack of length of service, but because you like the job and term time only jobs are as rare as rocking horse shit, I'd really do everything I can to try to organise wrap around care and do the hours they wish. Otherwise you will lose your job. I'm really sorry, 💐

Original poster

flissypix · 25/04/2018 08:44

Thank you for the advice. I am trying to find alternatives and work to figuring it out but frankly I am furious. Every women that has left has been replaced by a man and it’s become a boys club even my boss (female) is going for a promotion and has been told its likely to go to a new member of staff instead(male)
Do I have no standing for sex discrimination at all? Given that they are firing me because I can’t get childcare and I am the primary carer?

I want out because I am not going anywhere but I don’t want to be pushed out with nowhere to go!

OP posts:

cloudtree · 25/04/2018 08:46

There is a discrimination angle (indirect discrim based on the fact that women are more likely to have primary child care responsibilities) but it wouldn't be a cheap or easy case. If you came to me for legal advice I'd be telling you how expensive it is to bring a discrimination case and that it might be better to look for another role or look for alternative childcare arrangements.

cloudtree · 25/04/2018 08:48

But in any event an argument based on "I can't get childcare" is likely to run into difficulties because clearly it is possible to get childcare. Many others do.

Bluntness100 · 25/04/2018 08:48

You're not being fired because you can't get child care, you're being fired because you won't do the hours they need. Child care is not their problem it's yours. Anything personal is.

You could see an employment lawyer, but as you're substantially be,ow the two years you can't win this. They can terminate at any time. They do not have to offer flexible hours. The hours should be to meet the business need.

Are you saying none of the men have kids? Sex discrimatiin is because you're female. Both men and women have children and organising our personal lives is not the businesses responsibility.

Original poster

flissypix · 25/04/2018 09:04

Thank you for all the replies. Yes I am saying none of the men have children in my team.
I am not asking for flexible hours I am asking for the hours I was contracted to. It’s not that I can’t possibly get childcare I perhaps could it’s the fact that would then cost me to come to work as I earn less than I would be paying out in childcare.

OP posts:

Original poster

flissypix · 25/04/2018 09:06

Also as I understand it indirect discrimination does apply to childcare due to it being a ‘female responsiblity.

Cloud tree- thank you for your advice the cost/likelyhood to win is important. I am just so angry.

OP posts:

cloudtree · 25/04/2018 09:12

It isn't that it's a female responsibility, its that typically females tend to have primary childcare responsibility (although this is changing). You would have to demonstrate that in requiring you to work at 8am, the school was putting in place a requirement that was more difficult for women to comply with than men and that the requirement could not be justified. I suspect the school could justify it if they tried.

Bluntness100 · 25/04/2018 09:36

Honestly, you would have to have very deep pockets indeed to sue over this. You could see an employment lawyer but ultimately as you are well below the two years you simply cannot claim unfair dismissal easily.

They have told you it's a business need. The ball is in your court now. You have three options. You either accept and leave, you find wrap around child care, or you decline to sign and sue them.

I really would not recommend the latter unless you can afford the costs and can afford to lose.

Lemonlady22 · 28/04/2018 23:52

who does your work while you are off on your 'term time' contract?...possibly they want out of that as i cant see how you do the work of 2 or 3 people when on this type of contract

Original poster

flissypix · 29/04/2018 07:35

It’s education there is no work outside of term time. I 100% do the work of 2/3 people! When I started there was another person who did the same job as me who left over a year ago and has never been replaced they worked with one year group in the keystage and I worked with another now I do both. There was also another person directly above me who also left 6/7months again not replaced I have taken on huge chunks of their role. Both of these jobs are currently being advertised for people to start in the new school year.

OP posts:

underneaththeash · 29/04/2018 08:40

Look for another job OP, even if the hours are good, they promised you a pay rise and a promotion which you haven't had and you have a huge workload.

Lawyermama1987 · 29/04/2018 18:22

There’s quite a lot to unpick here in terms of the contractual position, the notice period and the possibility of discrimination. There are some things on here that aren’t quite right. The 5 month notice period might be relevant regarding your potential unfair dismissal claim (as I read it you will have been there more than 2 years when you leave - is that right?) is it contractual notice?

You probably already know; but Acas give free and impartial advice. They might be able to point you in the right direction.

Litigation is expensive. But adverse costs orders in employment are rare (though possible) so it is worth trying to find an employment solicitor who may work on a contingency basis, or at the very least do an initial free consultation. Then you’d know where you stand. They could give you an idea of costs as well.

All the best!

BoxsetsAndPopcorn · 29/04/2018 21:29

They don't need a reason to dismiss you as you have less than two years service.

Claiming indirect discrimination won't work as your argument is childcare. However it's available, you just don't want to pay for it. Therefore male or female, it would be the same.

Original poster

flissypix · 29/04/2018 22:46

It’s not that I won’t pay for it, it’s that I can’t pay for it the cost would mean I would be paying to go to work.
Currently they have offered me a trial change of hours 7:45-2:45 meaning I can do school pick up instead so the cost balances out. I am looking for a new job though and will continue to do so just got to hold on in until the end of term. It’s only a trial though and they could change their minds and I would be totally stuffed!
I am going through a really rough time personally and could do without losing my job.
Where would I stand if they didn’t agree to the new hours so I did agree to the core ones and then changed my mind in September? I guess that’s just a sackable offence?

OP posts:

YimminiYoudar · 29/04/2018 22:54

The 7:45 to 2:45 sounds workable and as if they are trying to find a solution that works rather than trying to get rid of you.

PersianCatLady · 30/04/2018 00:36

There is no sex discrimination.

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