Any conveyancers about? Title Deeds/registration question.

[timeistight]

MIL has just been diagnosed with dementia. Because her DC were all in complete denial, it is too late to get Power of Attorney, because she doesn't understand it and is refusing to do it, but we're trying to get a handle on her financial affairs.

We've identified the solicitors who made her Will. There's a copy in the house, so the solicitors should have the original. They won't confirm it, and rightly so, and MIL cannot check herself or authorise them to tell us.

The house is more of an issue. It was bought in the late fifties. No-one knows whose name(s) it is in. FIL died nearly 40 years ago. He made a Will, but according to the gov.uk website it doesn't seem to have gone through Probate at all. There was a mortgage at one time, but that was paid off in the 1980s.

We are in an area of compulsory registration and have been for years, so I would have expected the property
to have been registered and a Land Certificate issued when the mortgage was redeemed, but it doesn't look like that happened as the property is not coming up on the HMLR website.

MIL has no idea where the deeds are. They are not in the house and although she was able to tell us about the solicitors who made her Will, so that we could have identified them if we hadn't found the copy, she can't tell us anything about the Deeds.

1. Does it sound like the property is not registered?

1. A Land Certificate can, I think, be replaced. When the time comes, how will executors or deputies be able to sell the property if it is unregistered, the Deeds are missing and there is no paper trail to follow?

Thanks.

You can do an index map search - eservices.landregistry.gov.uk/www/wps/myportal/My_Home. Create an account and look on the list of options on the left. One will be for a map search. You can enter the postcode and you get to see whether it is registered (it will have a title number) or not.

What are the chances of an Index Map Search turning up a Title No when a search of the register doesn't in a case where the property has a standard postal address and there is no pending application?

Probably slim but for 5 mins of your time and a few quid it’s worth a shot.

Was the house a new build when they bought it?

Agree, do a an Index Map Search.
I was doing conveyancing in the eighties, when unregistered land was not that uncommon.
As far as I can recall, once a mortgage was redeemed, the lender would normally send the deeds to the owner. However, many banks did like to continue to hold the deeds ( probably as a way of getting future custom) . Some people preferred the bank to keep the deeds for safekeeping.
So I would check with the lender just in case they have been retained, and with the solicitors who drew up the will. Also check with the bank used by your in-laws - in those days many people used the same bank, normally a local one, for everything. There may even be a safe deposit box somewhere.
Meanwhile you may need to apply to the Court of Protection so that you can deal with MILs assets.
And if she has a lucid day, get her to sign something authorising you to deal with the solicitors ( witnessed by her GP if possible). Or even Power of Attorney - just because she doesn't understand today, it doesn't mean she won't tomorrow. Or just take her into the solicitors and get them to confirm what they are holding.

I will pm you

Thanks Delphinium. Lots of good ideas there. Although I understand what you say about capacity, we are definitely past the stage of letters of authority or PoA. There is no understanding, just refusal. In fact she refuses everything and hasn't seen her GP for years.

I do not believe the house was new when they bought it. No-one will know who the lender was, not thirty plus years after redemption.

Have you checked everywhere for paperwork that might give a hint? That generation used to keep everything - check the attic/basement/suitcase under the bed. Ask the children/any other relatives , it may have been discussed - I know who my mum used to bank with, I remember the cheque books. And people would often open an account with the same bank as their parents.
You will have to do a lot of detective work - speak to neighbours and family.
I think you would probably be able to sell eventually without the deeds , but it would involve statutory declarations and I think a court order. You'll definitely need to instruct solicitors who have experience in dealing with unregistered land, and it will take (a long) time.
First step would be an application to the Court of Protection. I'm pretty sure you will need a doctor's letter/diagnosis for that.
Good luck!

Thanks again. More to think about. I think in the end someone will have to apply to the CoP.

The message here, loud and clear, is that the children should have presented a united front and had these difficult conversations with their DM long before they were needed.

When my father had dementia just after our mother died he was lucid enough to tell us where the deeds might be. It was a similar situation - unregistered land, deeds sent back to him as owner when mortgage paid off in early 80s. His lawyers could then register it after our mother's death (it had been in joint names) so when he died soon after it was easier as all regitered. The deeds had fallen down the back of his filing cabinet so it is worth pulling out all the drawers and looking behind.

Also some lenders for a small feel I think will hold the deeds after the mortgage is paid off so do check that was not done. The solicitors who did the property transfe rin the 1950s might possibly have at least a copy of the deeds and the mortgage com,pany might have some copy or record of it or family members. Trying the land index map search above people suggest too.

FIL died nearly 40 years ago. He made a Will, but according to the gov.uk website it doesn't seem to have gone through Probate at all

I don't know if this helps at all but over on the recent You gov probate thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/legal_matters/3231964-you-gov-probate-search
there is this
"Kandana Thu 26-Apr-18 09:49:53
If the will left the entire estate to his spouse, then a grant of probate isn't required which will probably explain why one isn't showing up in the search".

If the will left the entire estate to his spouse, then a grant of probate isn't required which will probably explain why one isn't showing up in the search

That isn't correct. Probate isn't needed where the property passes under a joint tenancy rather than a will. If it passes under a will (so perhaps there was a tenancy in common, or the property was solely owned) then probate is essential.

Have you checked with whoever the mortgage was with? Often deeds are archived there for a nominal fee after redemption.