Caught for Fraud and arrested yesterday

[debbieb1980]

No excuses as I was caught red handed doing something I really should not have been doing.

I have been wrongly claiming whilst working due to a lot of money issues and now need to face the consequences of my actions.

My recent past caught up with me late yesterday evening when I was arrested at my workplace just before finishing my shift, I then had to go to the police station and have been in there til an hour or so ago.

Scared I will now end up in prison though if I do I know it is self inflicted, looking for any advice.

I get very tired of the scapegoating of 'benefit claimants'. Who are these benefit claimants? Anyone who has child benefit, child tax credits, working tax credits, had a help to buy isa, had help to buy scheme for their house, had a right to buy council house, housing benefit, state pension, PIP, other disability benefits, motability car, as well as job seekers allowance and universal credit. So most of us at some time or another. Can't stand people being so judgemental - OP knows she has done wrong, and will suffer for it. In the great scheme of things benefit fraud is a tiny percentage compared with the total benefits bill.

@usernamealreadytaken

Those are all completely valid points on the benefit system in general. I mean, if you're living on benefits you should never have a better life than people working and receiving no help. But if you say that on mumsnet, you get lynched because the consensus here seems to be "I should get everything I want for nothing and if you complain, you're shaming the poor" - they don't think about the middle class who get no help but don't have enough to cover expense.

The universal income is different thought. Everyone would get £5200 no matter what. So you'd be better off. It's the really high earners who'd be stuck with the bill, as usual.

Some out of work benefit claimants now can claim the equivalent of something like a £30k gross salary, and still say that's not enough to live on. Some out of work benefit claimants go on foreign holidays and drive new cars; our family can't afford that as we have a mortgage and bills to pay - if our boiler breaks or the roof is damaged the council does not come and repair it for free like those who are in social housing are entitled to

Bollocks. All of it.

@DaphneduM

The anger isn't directed at people having to choose between heating and food. We have a duty to help.
The anger is at those who earn a decent amount, but still qualify for benefits so they have disposable income for holidays etc. Whereas, if you're just over the threshold, you sometimes end up worse off than those below you. I can understand that anger.

And if they live in council housing, they get free repairs. The others have to pay for that. Again, I can understand that anger.

It's not about bashing people on benefts - it's the unjust feeling of it all. Really, benefits were brought in as a safety net and they've become a lot more than that. The idea was never that you'd have a better life if you could claim than if you didn't.

All this will result in will be a criminal re odd did fraud, community service or s suspended sentence and POCA. If they sent people to prison for this they'd be chocca. I used to work in a prison and met plenty who had been done for fraud. Never for less than 150-200k though and usually linked to other crime and money laundering.

Regarding. Not sure where 're odd did' came from!

I do take your point, Avasarala - thanks for responding to my post. Ironically when I was growing up our telephone number was one digit different to the phone number for council house repairs - it used to do my mum's head in hearing people's moans and groans about what needed doing. As a pensioner, I could feel the same about people who get pension credit - they get rent paid and council tax paid - whereas anyone who has just a small private pension, and therefore over the threshhold gets no help whatsoever. It's a very difficult and emotive subject - Gordon Brown probably thought he was doing the right thing by introducing more in work benefits, but unfortunately it has been used as an excuse by unscrupulous employers to pay low wages.

@Frequency how so? You don't believe that we don't go on foreign holidays, have to pay a mortgage and have to repair our own home and buy older cars, whilst there are some on out of work or top up benefits who have foreign holidays and have all their repairs done for them? I'm not saying all by any means, but some are playing the system and having a better standard of living than those who are paying for it, and they give a bad name to all those who are in genuine need

I've always thought that instead of so many in work benefits, there should be tax cuts, better council tax rates and other incentives for businesses to pay a proper wage. It would probably end up with a similar amount of money lost from the public purse, but it would change the culture of society from "there's no point getting a job, especially when they've got kids so get extra" to "everything pays well, working is the way".

I'm so worried about retirement. By the time I get there, it will probably be state pension at 80! I'm self employed so kill myself to put as much into my private pensions as possible. I'm 28 so hopefully I've got time!

@Avasarala you make some very good and sensible points; thank you. I see where the universal income idea could be good, but as it's so low surely those claiming benefits would still need to claim (and those cheating would continue to do so), and for those of us working it would depend on how it was structured as to whether or not we would be better off. If UI meant the abolition of the personal allowance and incomes were taxed in their entirety, albeit on a "progressive" scale, many could end up being worse off (I don't pay income tax as my wage is below the threshold).

Oh, I don't agree with universal income. Not with the changes they seem to want to make to taxes. My dad would have been taxed to death if that was happening while he was working, and his job was high stress, long hours, months away from home. He desvered every penny he brought home and i cannot see how it's fair to take more from people like him to fund a universal income.
With the personal allowance being removed, and in work benefits being cut, then people in the middle could be better or worse off - I hadn't thought about them being worse off!

They could find it by putting like. 0.2% fees on stock market transactions, or something like that. Economists have suggested things like that for a long time, they'd generate enough to pay it and what the big companies lose would be an acceptable loss (although they might not say that!). It's complicated, and there s always downsides but it seemed the most sensible proposal I've seen so far.

@usernamealreadytaken

No-one on out of work benefits is taking home vast sums of money, allowing them to buy fancy cars and holiday abroad.

www.turn2us.org.uk/Benefit-guides/Benefit-Cap/How-much-is-the-Benefit-Cap#guide-content

Benefits are capped at lower rates than that. The amount in London might appear high, but remember a vast sum of that includes housing benefit paid directly to the LL. The claimant gets a much lower figure.

And of course council tenants get 'free repairs' paid for via their rent Why should they pay to maintain something which doesn't belong to them? Private tenants also get 'free repairs' if you're unhappy paying to maintain your investment, sell up and move into rented accommodation.

we're you interview by the dwp previously under caution? was it recorded when they did?

If this is your first offence then you might get away with a high community sentence (a lot of hours of unpaid work - hundreds) - if you have previous similar (fraud or dishonesty) convictions then given the amount of money and the deliberate deceit then I think you are likely facing a prison sentence. Probably a year. Which will be 6 months served, 6 months on licence.

Dependents are a factor in judicial decision making but not a get out of jail free card as someone said earlier. There are plenty of people in prison who have children!

Prison sentence could be suspended in which case you would get the unpaid work hours of a high community order but with the threat of going straight to prison if you commit any offences during the period of the suspended sentence. I’m slightly suprised the starting point of sentencing is 1yr but those are the guidelines (uk though, obviously Scotland could be different in which case you’d need to look those up) hopefully your solicitor has been able to provide lots of useful information.

people should think about this someone on 8p ph would have to work 1562.5 hours or 39 :40 hour weeks

Fraud officer here, although I work in a slightly different dept now . (Still fraud but Organised crime) . Prior to that 28 yrs a fraud officer and not once have I ever heard of (or applied for) 3 months surveillance . ! I wouldn't even be granted that for a multi million pound crime gang . Let alone £12.500.
Surveillance is expensive and incredibly tightly regulated. It has to be applied for under a RIPA (Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000) and is authorised according to strict criteria. Chief amongst these are proportionality. I would also not be permitted to have a RIPA open for 3 months ! .
Lots of exaggeration in this account.

The arrest. Again, in 28 yrs of benefit fraud, not once EVER have I ever been 'assisted' in an arrest by CID. They do not have the time, the inclination or the knowledge of the case.
As the investigation lead I will know the details. I go along with a street copper or tactical support (they don't always wear uniform) and have the suspect arrested. If we are after evidence then I will be present at a house search and direct the police to bag up appropriate evidence . They book them in to custody and officially hand evidence over to my care, and that is where their involvement ends.
Prisoner then goes to a cell whilst we wait for duty solicitor/appropriate adult / translator depending upon the prisoners age/mental health or capacity/grip on the language.

The interview under caution is then conducted by DWP. The police DO NOT do benefit fraud interviews. How can they ? What questions are they going to ask ? They know nothing of the allegations. It just doesn't happen.

Once interview complete we will contact CPS (overnight this service is very very slow and probably the reason she had such a long wait) . They provide the charging advice. Once obtained, you are charged and remanded to be heard by the magistrate the next day if considered a flight risk- or released to await a court date.

The OP has helped herself by making a full and frank confession as soon as possible following arrest. If she carries this on to a guilty plea at the first opportunity then the Judge will treat her more leniently.

The sentence will depend on wether you have been charged under the Social
security Act or The Fraud Act.
In my experience your Sentence on an early guilty plea will be a Community Order and suspended sentence although within his powers to impose 6 months custodial.

The bad points in your case is the length of time the fraud was committed over. Not only did you fail to admit it when questioned. But EVERY year you renewed your claim you did so knowing you hadn't declared your true circumstances.
Yet a lawyer and make sure he knows how to make a good mitigation plea. Hold your hands up and you will probably get the least you can be given. Not least because out prisons are too full and it costs £39k to keep someone in prison for a year !.

Any update OP? All gone very quiet?

What a load of old rubbishbenefit claimants out of work can claim more than £30.000 , tell my son that who is on £73 a week and has to pay bills,food, council tax and now been told to pay back overpayment of tax credits ,£47 a month, codswallop, who invents these stories
He cant afford to eat,i am a pensioner and helping him out,
I would love to know how anyone on benefits can afford foreign holidays etc

What a load of old rubbishbenefit claimants out of work can claim more than £30.000

It's bluster from people who do not realise laws have changed relatively recently.

Not including you, but its quite funny to see long term trends on MN, when the cap of ~26k was introduced there was a lot of backlash on here, funnily enough from the same posters who before the cap said you couldn't live on benefits and all those on median wage complaining were daily mail reading bigots, but now regularly bring up that its capped.

Funny old world.

kittens that was a really well written and interesting post, thanks for that.

Just to point out though, the op is in Scotland so the cps charging decision doesn’t apply here.

I would like to point out that my son has a chronof illness, had several strokes and has osteoporosis,he gets £73 altogether and has a a warden charge of £30 a month as well as everything else, yet he failed a pip check, all his answers had 0 points, and were not the answers he gave, they lie
On the other hand, have a drugs propblem and they get money thrown at them, and i know that for a fact, as i have a relative with that problem, who has had thousands and blows it all in a couple of days
This system is very unfair

Chronic

The £30k was correctly described above - it is the grossed up benefits cap.

£23k is the London benefits cap and plenty are up to that level with families in London and £30k is the gross wage you need to earn.
So someone on £30k gross full time wage in London who is married with children will be earning the maximum benefits sum. So those London benefits claimants up against the cap have in effect a £30k a year gross wage. The figure of £30k is exactly right. People without children and outside of London of course differ.

£30k... awesome.